S2 6.7 Junk Rig Conversion

  • 25 Aug 2021 21:38
    Reply # 10956656 on 6872873
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    Sorry, Hans-Erik,

    but I am a little pressed for times these days. Our summer doesn’t last forever, and the fine days we still enjoy here, must be spent on better things than writing. These days I am spending the mornings painting a wall on my house (before the wind picks up and the sun starts shining on the wall), and in the afternoons I like to sail, but this night I got a call from Svein Magnus in Samson, so tomorrow I will go up the  in Samson’s main mast to sort out a halyard  -  maybe followed by a test sail.

    There is not much wrong in using hose clamps, as I have used them for years. Just wrap some stout tape over them to cover the nuts and pointy bits. Later, if these turn out to rust, they can be replaced with some sort of rolling hitch.

    Good luck!
    Arne


    Last modified: 26 Aug 2021 22:43 | Anonymous member (Administrator)
  • 25 Aug 2021 09:04
    Reply # 10955067 on 10953023
    Anonymous wrote:
    I plan to make a more comprehensive write-up about it, and then incorporate the lashing of the halyard to the yard.

    Cheers,
    Arne

    So that was the plan you came up with.
    I had read about your intention to try an alternative way to secure the batten parrels and HK parrels and was literally about to email you to ask if you had.
    Since the 'rigging' of Jasmine's sail is soon to become real I for one eagerly await your write up.
    Fair Winds,
    Hans-Erik
    Last modified: 25 Aug 2021 09:07 | Anonymous member
  • 24 Aug 2021 17:33
    Reply # 10953381 on 6872873
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    Scott,
    my other reason for not just replacing the rusty hose clamps with new ones, is the same as yours  -  to avoid ‘screw heads and pointy parts’. That said; there has been no damages caused by these.

    That red and white material is just tape. I put it under the hose clamps to avoid corrosion, and I didn’t bother with removing it when going Dyneema. Thanks to that little white ‘safety string, that lashing will never slip.

    Arne


    Last modified: 24 Aug 2021 22:10 | Anonymous member (Administrator)
  • 24 Aug 2021 16:36
    Reply # 10953215 on 10953023
    Arne wrote:

    This weekend, before going on a Sunday sail, I replaced all those hoseclamps on the battens with firm lashings of 2mm Dyneema line. The reason was that the hoseclamps bled rust onto the sail. The method appeared to work very well. The lashing, generally consisting of 4-6 single overhand knots, was tied as firmly as I could without tools, and then the final knot was tripled and fused. This is not nearly as taut as the hoseclamp, so a little helping line was added to the backside of it and then stitched to the batten pocked (see white string). Its job is just to get the rolling hitch effect of the lashing ’started’. There is no load to speak of at that white string when the rolling hitch effect of the lashing sets in.

    I plan to make a more comprehensive write-up about it, and then incorporate the lashing of the halyard to the yard.

    Cheers,
    Arne


    I thought about using hose clamps but I could never bring myself to accept having screw heads and other pointy parts of the clamps right where the sail bundle stacks up firmly against the mast.

    The simple hitches I have at this location, aft of the mast, have not given me any problems. Honestly they look like they would work themselves loose, but they have not.

    I have the batten parrels running out to the forward end of the batten and then each one looping back on itself and held there with a rolling hitch. This is the hitch that is 'pushed' by the mast and slips over time.

    Arne, what is the red and white material under the Dyneema lashing? I have been thinking about doing something similar, but using the same grip tape (friction tape) I used to attach the halyard

    Scott.

  • 24 Aug 2021 15:41
    Reply # 10953023 on 10938788
    Anonymous member (Administrator)
    Anonymous wrote:

    Hi Scott,

    I cannot recall who wrote about having cut up his wife's yoga mat to pad the vinyl batten pockets at the mast but thought it such a great idea.

    Not having a wife, let alone one who has a yoga mat, I purchased two to use in making the sail for Jasmine.

    As to the 'slippage' of your batten parrels I am using 25mm webbing and plan to attach them to the battens as Arne did on Ingeborg using hose clamps.





    This weekend, before going on a Sunday sail, I replaced all those hoseclamps on the battens with firm lashings of 2mm Dyneema line. The reason was that the hoseclamps bled rust onto the sail. The method appeared to work very well. The lashing, generally consisting of 4-6 single overhand knots, was tied as firmly as I could without tools, and then the final knot was tripled and fused. This is not nearly as taut as the hoseclamp, so a little helping line was added to the backside of it and then stitched to the batten pocked (see white string). Its job is just to get the rolling hitch effect of the lashing ’started’. There is no load to speak of at that white string when the rolling hitch effect of the lashing sets in.

    I plan to make a more comprehensive write-up about it, and then incorporate the lashing of the halyard to the yard.

    Cheers,
    Arne


  • 24 Aug 2021 14:40
    Reply # 10952844 on 6872873

    I just finished reading an interesting article about a traditional Chinese junk.

    5 fishermen, a diplomat and 2 hens: Over 60 years ago, they crossed the Pacific in a Chinese junk boat

  • 18 Aug 2021 09:38
    Reply # 10938788 on 6872873

    Hi Scott,

    I cannot recall who wrote about having cut up his wife's yoga mat to pad the vinyl batten pockets at the mast but thought it such a great idea.

    Not having a wife, let alone one who has a yoga mat, I purchased two to use in making the sail for Jasmine.

    As to the 'slippage' of your batten parrels I am using 25mm webbing and plan to attach them to the battens as Arne did on Ingeborg using hose clamps.




    3 files
    Last modified: 18 Aug 2021 09:43 | Anonymous member
  • 17 Aug 2021 21:56
    Reply # 10937820 on 10935694
    Arne wrote:
    David, how big are those parachute sea anchors? I have made a number of 6-sector parachutes. I use them (from the stern) to slow down my boat while hoisting sail.


    They come in a range of sizes up to about 1.4m diameter which is suitable for larger vessels. They are not a proper parachute anchor for riding out a storm at sea, which is a much more serious piece of equipment, but these smaller sizes are suitable as a drogue to stop a smaller boat for a while to rest, or reevaluate the current situation.
  • 17 Aug 2021 18:27
    Reply # 10937433 on 10935197
    David wrote:

    This is one area where the junk rig is not so good. There are a lot of hard heavy spars being the battens, yard and boom, and these are not held that rigidly against the mast, and then there is all the weight in the complete sail package which is quite considerable compared to a bermudan sail.

    The first sail we had on Footprints was really bad for banging and crashing against the mast. It just had hard bearing surfaces on the battens, yard, and boom, and with conventional parrels there was always enough slop in the system for the spars to come away slightly from the mast, and then crash back in again. This however was not a problem on the second sail that David Tyler helped me make. He had the great idea of sewing soft cell foam onto all the batten, yard and boom pockets as soft fendering. I also fitted webbing parrels which were long fore and aft and I was able to keep these very tight which kept the battens etc. hard against the mast. Even ocean crossing we had no issues with creaking and groaning and slatting. So what is probably needed is softer cushioning between the mast and sail spars, and maybe a better parrel system to hold the sail bundle closer to the mast.

    The other thing though is to stop the sail package moving from side to side and for this you really need to set up a preventer system to hold the sail package in position athwartships.

    Regarding stopping and waiting, a windvane probably would not help you a lot there because they need forward motion of the boat to produce the steering force. Even a tiller pilot would struggle in that situation unless the boat is fore reaching at a couple of knots.

    One way you could stop and rest for a while is to drop all sail and use a small parachute sea anchor from the bow. These small parachute anchors are very common now in New Zealand where fishers in small powered craft use them for stopping and fishing while in deeper water.

    Thank you for taking the time to write and help. This prompted me to check the batten parrels. I thought they were tight on the mast when the sail was completely lowered, and only loose when I had them up higher on the tapered mast. It turns out I was wrong. Several of the batten parrels were loose. I snugged them down by adjusting the rolling hitches that I have holding them in place.

    I went out in similar conditions again last night, but with somewhat smaller waves, and the 'bonking' was almost non existent when I let the sheet out. The parrels held the battens tight to the mast and the vinyl padding seemed to keep it quiet.

    While looking at the quiet sail I realized that the rolling hitches land on the mast such that the mast can 'push' the hitch and cause it to slip down the standing part of the parrel. I think over the summer my batten parrels have been working themselves loose.

    This winter I will work on a better parrel system that uses webbing and an attachment that cannot work itself loose like the rolling hitches.

    There is still creaking as the sail rotates. I wonder if I need to use more slippery rope for the YHP and Tack Parrel, or maybe coat those lines in some dry lubricant.

    Scott.

    Last modified: 17 Aug 2021 20:22 | Anonymous member
  • 17 Aug 2021 18:18
    Reply # 10937396 on 10935918
    Curtis wrote:

    "Do you have any thoughts on the creaking and groaning as the sail swings back and forth?"

    Can't recall where I read it--PJR, maybe?--but you can wrap the battens in leather. I don't know about the noise, but it would protect the finish on both battens and mast.

    Hi Curtis,

    On the yard, battens and boom I have pockets and fendering made from marine vinyl. Or at least it is what the nearby fabric store calls Marine Vinyl. Without the vinyl padding I expect there would be terrible clanging and banging. With the vinyl it is more of a 'bonk' when the other spars hit the mast.

    It seems to be doing a reasonable job of protecting the aluminum from grinding itself into dust. I may have to add some patches here and there after a few seasons but otherwise I think this is working OK. Maybe when it comes time to add patches I will also include some sort of foam padding, as suggested by David Th.

    After messing with the sail more last night I am almost sure that the creaking noises are from the YHP and the Tack Parrel rotating around the mast. I am not sure what can be done about this.

    Last modified: 18 Aug 2021 01:28 | Anonymous member
       " ...there is nothing - absolutely nothing - half so much worth doing as simply messing about in junk-rigged boats" 
                                                               - the Chinese Water Rat

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