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Wingsail or Junk?

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  • 05 Mar 2020 21:09
    Quote
    Reply # 8799425 on 8799286
    Deleted user
    Anonymous wrote:

    That's a beautiful drawing.

    What's the point of the fore-mast? If it's for aesthetic reasons that's fine by me but it looks like a complication getting in the way of a cutter rig. Is the forestay actually staying the raked mast or is the raked mast holding up the forestay for the forestays'l?

    Why not more balance on the mainsail?

    I'm genuinely interested as it's all pertinent to my proposed gaff to junk project.

    The foremast started out as a replication of the rig found on the Thai junk (Rua Pet type) and initially I tried a battened junk sail on this mast along with a mainsail having more balance. Performance was not wonderfull, so some experimentation resulted in what you see here. Positive rake of the mainmast and negative on the foremast opens the space between them to be filled with a batten-less quadrilateral 'fisherman's jib'/gollywobbler type sail.Then there are staysails carried on both masts, mostly for heavy weather work. Not shown is a sprit on the foresail, which allows a wing on wing set of main and foresail for going downwind. I would use a wishbone as a replacement for the top batten in the case of opting for material other than bamboo, then the balance issue of the main can be synchronised to prevent snagging the leach of the foresail. 
    Last modified: 05 Mar 2020 21:12 | Deleted user
  • 05 Mar 2020 19:48
    Quote
    Reply # 8799286 on 8568472
    Anonymous member

    That's a beautiful drawing.

    What's the point of the fore-mast? If it's for aesthetic reasons that's fine by me but it looks like a complication getting in the way of a cutter rig. Is the forestay actually staying the raked mast or is the raked mast holding up the forestay for the forestays'l?

    Why not more balance on the mainsail?

    I'm genuinely interested as it's all pertinent to my proposed gaff to junk project.
  • 05 Mar 2020 19:11
    Quote
    Reply # 8799207 on 8568472
    Deleted user

    Hope this works Randy - I have eventually managed to butt into the very busy schedule of my 'management' and get her to oblige by sending a phone foto of the rig diagram I am talking about, so if it now appears, I can explain with answers to questions..... rains have begun here and I am forced to stop work outside on the boat at times.

    1 file
  • 02 Mar 2020 01:35
    Quote
    Reply # 8785798 on 8784912
    Deleted user
    Anonymous wrote:
    Anonymous wrote:
    Anonymous wrote:
    Anonymous wrote:in this picture):

    No, a pretty conventional main and jib configuration is not what I had or am suggesting, but the jigger mast and small mizzen is what i imagine to be carried.

    .

    That’s sounding a lot like the image I posted earlier, when asking this thread about whether or not I could go unstayed. Unless I’m missing something. I’ve two masts, mizzen and main with jibs off main mast to bowsprit. Unless I’m missing something? Can you provide an image of what you describe?

    I have a decent image on file, but am not managing to open and post it right now, so wwhen PC help arrives back tomorrow, will be able to oblige.

    The basic idea is to elliminate rigging tension by distributing load over multiple spars/battens and  soft rigging. The only conventional tensioned luff is that of a baby jib on the bowsprit, which is so small as to be negligeable. Addition of a small mizzen mast and sail (if deired) is likewise no big deal.


    Can you email it to me? Radmacdaddy (at) mac dot com.
    Randy,I have  had no time to do anything but get my boat closed up and sealed before rainy season comes on. Hopefully I can get help to find and open the file within a day or two and meet your request. This message is the first writing I have done for weeks. 
  • 01 Mar 2020 11:41
    Quote
    Reply # 8784912 on 8698770
    Deleted user
    Anonymous wrote:
    Anonymous wrote:
    Anonymous wrote:in this picture):

    No, a pretty conventional main and jib configuration is not what I had or am suggesting, but the jigger mast and small mizzen is what i imagine to be carried.

    .

    That’s sounding a lot like the image I posted earlier, when asking this thread about whether or not I could go unstayed. Unless I’m missing something. I’ve two masts, mizzen and main with jibs off main mast to bowsprit. Unless I’m missing something? Can you provide an image of what you describe?

    I have a decent image on file, but am not managing to open and post it right now, so wwhen PC help arrives back tomorrow, will be able to oblige.

    The basic idea is to elliminate rigging tension by distributing load over multiple spars/battens and  soft rigging. The only conventional tensioned luff is that of a baby jib on the bowsprit, which is so small as to be negligeable. Addition of a small mizzen mast and sail (if deired) is likewise no big deal.


    Can you email it to me? Radmacdaddy (at) mac dot com.
  • 28 Jan 2020 20:10
    Quote
    Reply # 8698770 on 8696855
    Deleted user
    Anonymous wrote:
    Anonymous wrote:in this picture):

    No, a pretty conventional main and jib configuration is not what I had or am suggesting, but the jigger mast and small mizzen is what i imagine to be carried.

    .

    That’s sounding a lot like the image I posted earlier, when asking this thread about whether or not I could go unstayed. Unless I’m missing something. I’ve two masts, mizzen and main with jibs off main mast to bowsprit. Unless I’m missing something? Can you provide an image of what you describe?

    I have a decent image on file, but am not managing to open and post it right now, so wwhen PC help arrives back tomorrow, will be able to oblige.

    The basic idea is to elliminate rigging tension by distributing load over multiple spars/battens and  soft rigging. The only conventional tensioned luff is that of a baby jib on the bowsprit, which is so small as to be negligeable. Addition of a small mizzen mast and sail (if deired) is likewise no big deal.
  • 28 Jan 2020 09:06
    Quote
    Reply # 8696993 on 8568472
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    Randy,

    until you have convinced me that the mast has been built to stay up without shrouds, I think it will be better to keep them. Moreover, the rig I drew up also has a staysail, and that alone will ask for shrouds to steady the mast and avoid too badly sagging forestay.

    Arne
  • 28 Jan 2020 05:51
    Quote
    Reply # 8696855 on 8696115
    Deleted user
    Anonymous wrote:in this picture):

    No, a pretty conventional main and jib configuration is not what I had or am suggesting, but the jigger mast and small mizzen is what i imagine to be carried.

    .

    That’s sounding a lot like the image I posted earlier, when asking this thread about whether or not I could go unstayed. Unless I’m missing something. I’ve two masts, mizzen and main with jibs off main mast to bowsprit. Unless I’m missing something? Can you provide an image of what you describe?
    1 file
    Last modified: 28 Jan 2020 08:36 | Deleted user
  • 27 Jan 2020 20:36
    Quote
    Reply # 8696115 on 8694143
    Deleted user
    Anonymous wrote:
    Anonymous wrote:

    What I would do, given your situation, is tabernacle-step the pole  as a mainmast, to carry a five panel junk sail, then set the foremast right up in the eyes of the boat and have a jib set to a removable bowsprit, from this (foremast) only.

    With a mizzenmast and sail, these two small and easily manageable sails should be good for balance. Then it would also be possible to carry a good driving sail in the way of a fishermans jib/gollywobbler type sail between the fore and mainmast..... as a guadrilateral sail with its peakhauling line belayed to windward, you have  a measure of staying and have theconvenience in handling of the battened mains'l.

    Not fully sure what you mean, but here’s a drawing of what I think you mean(though I didn’t make the junk sail smaller in this picture):

    No, a pretty conventional main and jib configuration is not what I had or am suggesting, but the jigger mast and small mizzen is what i imagine to be carried.

    My rig ( that I attempted to describe above) had only the main and foremast, on a converted workboat, with a junk-like built up stern having enough windage to act as something of a substitute for a riding sail when at anchor. Otherwise a combination of full or reefed mainsail was used in combination with a choice of other sails carried on the foremast, excepting when reefed right down for storm conditions - when only the top triangular panel of the main was carried along with a storm jib/staysail from the mainmast.

    I am making this suggestion because you are evidently not going to end up with modern junk keeler or else a replica traditional junk.

    Something of a hybrid that I am suggesting will keep you sailing as long as there is a fair breeze, but then you have the motor to help you along in tight situations.

    Had I used camber in the mainsail panels, performance might have  been surprisingly beneficial.

    Last modified: 27 Jan 2020 20:38 | Deleted user
  • 27 Jan 2020 12:55
    Quote
    Reply # 8694683 on 8568472
    Anonymous member

    I'm following this project with great interest. Randy and I are both converting old gaffers, it's a pity we're at opposite ends of the country!

    If I can throw in a suggestion; it might be simpler to keep things really simple for the first season or two with a junk rig for Randy and I, as we both have to re-invent the wheel somewhat as we have no other junkies nearby for hands-on help. It looks to me like this trawler could easily and simply be converted with the existing stayed mast as in Arne's suggestion of "From Gaff to Junk" which has already been suggested. In my case with my much smaller Westerly 22 my current plan is to build a Reddish Rig and throw it up on the existing mast with as little bother as possible and have fun and learn the interesting way. I'm taking "From Gaff to Junk" one logical step further and cutting the Reddish sail from an old-but-good high-peaked gaff-main from a small Falmouth Quay Punt (sitting patiently in my yard!). I reckon it's the most bang for my buck, should be fun, and changes nothing on the boat so its easy to go back to the gunter rig if things don't work out. Neither Randy's trawler or my W22 are ever going to fly to windward so it's really a matter of having a safe powerful sail for when the wind is in your favour. I'll start a new post on the subject when I get around to it, which might be mid-summer at this stage. I'm hoping to incorporate some camber and/or bendy battens when I have the project in front of me for real. 
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