Wingsail or Junk?

  • 18 Jan 2020 11:01
    Reply # 8609665 on 8568472
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    Randy,

    yes, to quote Tom Cunliffe in his book ‘Hand, reef and steer’:

    “Hounds: The part of the mast which the main
    shrouds are attached. In a gaffer it is well up the
    shaft, because it must be above the gaff-jaws.”

    Funny about the images. They are meant to be opened (after some delay) if you click on them.
    Maybe this link to my member’s photo album will work better for you.

    Cheers,
    Arne


  • 18 Jan 2020 10:01
    Reply # 8609291 on 8601873
    Deleted user
    Anonymous wrote:

    The problem is, I don’t know the distance up from deck level to the hounds. Only when I know this (plus the accurate mast position), can I draw a more accurate rig. Here I have just guessed the hounds to sit 11.5m above deck and then I moved the forestay and main halyard up another half metre. As you see, I have also fitted a staysail  -  too bad not to make use of that stay. For the mizzen I just copied Alan Boswell’s sail.

    Actually, unless you know that you need the mizzen to avoid sailing around at anchor, I would wait with it, as I doubt if the mainsail plus staysail alone will cause a noticeable lee helm.

    What are the hounds? Is that the point where the stays/shrouds connect to the mast? 


    I almost put up just a mizzen last summer for stability while under motor or at anchor. Both of which I feel would be worth the effort. 

    unfortunately the images you uploaded are too low quality to read the words you superimposed over the image  could you reupload in pdf or larger image? PDF will be much clearer. 


  • 18 Jan 2020 09:57
    Reply # 8609272 on 8568472
    Deleted user

    Boy, you guys rock! Great thoughts. 

    I would actually like to have a bowsprit, even if it’s just to support a net to lay in while viewing the surfing dolphins. I dare say it’ll be the favourite hang out for our kids!

    id be keen, I think, to do the junk sail on that main mast for ease of handling. And to feel I’ve accomplished a long held dream. Can it be bigger, that sail? Wouldn’t that produce more moving power? Some of the old images of large junks I see seem to have MUCH deeper sails. Longer parrels/boom. Could not go right back to the aft of the pilot house? Or is that putting the COE to far aft?

    thinking of the image I have here:

    1 file
  • 17 Jan 2020 15:40
    Reply # 8601873 on 8568472
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    Randy,

    just for fun, I had a little go to sketch up an AUX rig for your vessel. I fitted the mainmast 1/3 of the boatlength aft of the bow and then just dropped one of my master sails on it. The problem is, I don’t know the distance up from deck level to the hounds. Only when I know this (plus the accurate mast position), can I draw a more accurate rig. Here I have just guessed the hounds to sit 11.5m above deck and then I moved the forestay and main halyard up another half metre. As you see, I have also fitted a staysail  -  too bad not to make use of that stay. For the mizzen I just copied Alan Boswell’s sail.
    Actually, unless you know that you need the mizzen to avoid sailing around at anchor, I would wait with it, as I doubt if the mainsail plus staysail alone will cause a noticeable lee helm.

    Anyway, since the rig is rather small (even with the hounds a metre higher up), I strongly recommend that you give the mainsail plenty of camber. Don’t let anyone tell you that making a cambered panel sail is difficult! There is actually the advantage that you loft each batten panel one by one, which lets you get away with a lot smaller  lofting floor.

    Cheers,
    Arne



    Last modified: 18 Jan 2020 11:23 | Anonymous member (Administrator)
  • 17 Jan 2020 08:48
    Reply # 8599026 on 8598357
    Randy wrote:
    I don't think it would be worth going for any kind of junk rig.
    Ok! Please elaborate

    I was thinking that you had three masts as in your avatar; that with plenty of deck room, you could manage three Wharram sails, each of which would be simply hoisted and lowered and not reefed very often; and that those sails would be quicker and easier to make than three junk sails. Moreover, with a large young crew aboard to be gainfully employed, you might as well get them accustomed to wrestling with canvas.

    Now that I know that you have just the two masts, that puts a different complexion on the matter. The forward sail would in fact be a pretty big mainsail, and would need careful handling if it was a Wharram wing. Not that it's impossible to handle such sail, the two sails on Spirit of Gaia must be of similar size. Just needs a bit more care, to avoid injury, when a big sail is able to flog when being reefed. Reefing a big gaff sail is "not by any to be entered into unadvisedly or lightly; but reverently, discreetly, advisedly, soberly, and in the fear of God". And reefing would be necessary, as I suspect it wouldn't be with a three-sail rig - there, you'd use one, two or three according to the conditions.

    So it's back to putting in the time and effort to make a big flat junk sail with plenty of balance. Flat, because this is never going to be a boat that will go to windward in light breezes, and a flat sail will work fine when the wind pipes up. Plenty of balance, and a low yard angle, to keep the loadings low, and I hope to obviate the need for a headsail.

    The mizzen will be small, with little balance area, and often furled in fresh breezes for better helm balance. It could be a Wharram wing, to save on time and effort in making it, or it could be a junk sail, to make it more useful as a riding sail.

    Whatever the sails, I'd be thinking of four shrouds, two forward and two aft, rather than two after shrouds and a headstay (to avoid having a bowsprit).

    Last modified: 17 Jan 2020 09:37 | Anonymous member
  • 17 Jan 2020 07:10
    Reply # 8598365 on 8581725
    Deleted user
    Anonymous wrote:

    Ah, I see.
    Still, if Randy already has the mast etc. for a gaffrig, it is fully possible to replace the gaff-sail for a junk sail, and thus get the benefit of easy reefing, which the Wharram sail lacks  -  at least in the size which would be needed for Randy’s trawler.

    Arne

    PS: If the link doesn't work, Go to this page

    https://junkrigassociation.org/arne/

    ..and click on "from gaff to junk", found under "Other techincal articles"

    The link works for me. Thanks Arne, Very interesting read! And very relevant. I think that this is more or less how I’d approach it, just throw up a junk sail! 


    on a separate note, I have a tiki 21 like the one in your harbour! Maybe I’ll mess around with a junk on it some day as you suggest

    Last modified: 17 Jan 2020 07:16 | Deleted user
  • 17 Jan 2020 07:08
    Reply # 8598357 on 8580869
    Deleted user
    I don't think it would be worth going for any kind of junk rig.
    Ok! Please elaborate
  • 17 Jan 2020 07:07
    Reply # 8598346 on 8578622
    Deleted user
    Anonymous wrote:

    Hello Randy,

    It's a pity that I'd forgotten that you were based in Killybegs, when I sailed into there last summer. I could have had a look.

    I'm not clear on how many masts you've ended up with, and where they're placed?

    I’d truly have loved that David!


    i have two masts, one I plan to mount about ⅓ back from the bow and a mizzen I will mount immediately aft of the pilot house. 

  • 17 Jan 2020 07:05
    Reply # 8598335 on 8568472
    Deleted user

    Well, I feel like I’ve shaken things up with this question. Arne, David & Howard, I appreciate all your thoughts and comments. I can see the experts here have also questions to ask, as do the newbie’s something to offer, though I’m not sure the entire unfolding is best done in the midst of an unrelated topic . 

    yes, David, you were correct in noting that I am indeed discussing the Wharram wing sail, which, according to James Wharram, it’s designer, can be very easily reefed (nearly as easily as a junk (though I can’t fathom how) and able to pull up quite easily, even while going with the wind. Go figure? Thus it’s appeal to me. Have a look at Wharram’s own posting on this sail design here if you’re unaware of its attributes. I’m sure you’ll find it intriguing: Wharram wing sail .


    i appreciate you get my cost/time challenge with the complete junk setup Arne. More time, than cost holds me back. But, yes, the large size of the required sail in gaff would be daunting I’m sure. Thus I’ve been so drawn to the junk design...as well as some sort of previous life on a junk boat somewhere in my soul journey that must be what makes it so desirable in my heart! 

    I know I’ve seen pictures of old large junk boats with stayed masts. Are you saying I could just slap one on it and go?


  • 17 Jan 2020 00:29
    Reply # 8595703 on 8592245
    Deleted user
    Anonymous wrote:
    Howard wrote:... but what do I know??

    Howard,

    From our forum policy:

    "Do you have sufficient knowledge to make an assertive statement, or should you instead be asking a question to increase your knowledge?"

    It's clear that though you might have design experience in an unrelated field, you haven't studied the Wharram wingsail, nor the gaff rig and the type of stayed mast upon which it's usually rigged. In short, it seems to me, as it does to Arne, that your postings haven't been of much use to Randy, as he tries to make a decision on what rig he should use.


     David:

         I stand admonished............. My purpose  here as you suggest is to learn.  My mode of  learning is not passive, and never has been.   The questions I pose may  not be of use to Randy...... they are question I would ask, and the answers to them may be of use.   I apologize for introducing my questions and thoughts into this thread where they are obviously not welcome.  I will refrain from any more postings here.


                                             H.W.

       " ...there is nothing - absolutely nothing - half so much worth doing as simply messing about in junk-rigged boats" 
                                                               - the Chinese Water Rat

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