Wingsail or Junk?

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  • 16 Jan 2020 22:58
    Reply # 8595067 on 8568472
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    Howard,

    sorry about my blunt answer to you; it surely looks patronising  at a second glance.
    Still, Randy’s request and your answer reminded me about two things:

    1:
    Before Christmas I had to buy a new car ( after 17 years in the old one), so I asked a mate for advice on what to buy. Silly me, I surely got advice, but it was about a car he needed, not I.
    I guess I felt that your advice to Randy was the rig you would want, not the one he would need, or could easily construct from the available rig..

    2:
    The other was the matter of size. Randy’s vessel is a beast of 49’ and over 25 tons. It struck me that some sails can be scaled up or down more easily than others, without becoming impossible to handle. I’ve played a bit with small, boomless sprit- and gaffsails (see photo). Manhandling these sails in the 4-6sqm range is easy, but I would hate to sail under one of 30 or 60sqm.
    Add a boom to them, and they can be made controllable in the bigger sizes, but clever, and very powerful devises must be added to make reefing possible, lazyjacks or no lazyjacks. To me the junksail is by far the sail type which lets one scale it over the widest range. I have seen the mighty JR sloop Peregrine charging along under her 80sqm sail. She soon had an electric capstan added for the halyard, but so what? There was also a manual backup winch. Randy’s vessel will need something in this size range (hounds position permitting).

    So size matters  -  in this case.

    Cheers,
    Arne

    PS: As for midwife experience with calves and lambs, I have none, hands on, but when it comes to delivering piglets, I am an able hand!


  • 16 Jan 2020 16:59
    Reply # 8592245 on 8592089
    Howard wrote:... but what do I know??

    Howard,

    From our forum policy:

    "Do you have sufficient knowledge to make an assertive statement, or should you instead be asking a question to increase your knowledge?"

    It's clear that though you might have design experience in an unrelated field, you haven't studied the Wharram wingsail, nor the gaff rig and the type of stayed mast upon which it's usually rigged. In short, it seems to me, as it does to Arne, that your postings haven't been of much use to Randy, as he tries to make a decision on what rig he should use.

  • 16 Jan 2020 16:39
    Reply # 8592089 on 8583785
    Deleted user
    Anonymous wrote:

    H.W.

    sometimes the second-best will have to do. Randy already had a stayed mast, and the step from there to having a junk mainsail is quite short. Knowing from my own experience that making and rigging the mast takes a lot more time (and cost) than making the sail, I can well understand why Randy wants to cut corners.

    It is a bit too easy to sit hundreds of miles from the sea, with zero JR experience, and instruct someone that this JR is good and the other is not. The bigger the sail gets, the more important becomes easy reefing. 

    Arne




    Arne:

          I don't consider expressing my thoughts on this amounts to "instructing"..... I leave that entirely up to you.  A large part of my business involves designing and building things for agricultural customers in my area, which happens as you point out, to be hundreds of miles from the ocean.  The US is a huge country.... around 5000 km coast to coast, and I made the choice to live in the foothills of the Rocky Mountains many years ago for many reasons that are not relevant here.    As a result, I do not get as much sailing in as I'd like, as I get to the coast only a few times a year, when visiting family,  though I have friends who sail the inland lakes & reservoirs closer at hand, and I join them when the opportunity arises.  Mostly I live on dreams and ideas between times.  The sea has always drawn me, but I find the crowding and abominable weather of the PNW intolerable..........but it's -18C here as I write, but dead calm, sunny, and the  mountains jump out and touch you it's so clear at this elevation (1525M) this time of year....... only the sound of the birds punctuates the silence.  I've always seen the face of God most clearly in the  mountains and the sea, with only the sounds of  nature.

          As one who designs and builds things for others constantly, the ability to see the problems and issues by working through the operation of something in my head before it is built is critical.   I build things in my head, and make small changes dozens or even hundreds of times before I cut iron, or assemble electrical, mechanical, or hydraulic control systems.   I have to be able to see how different systems interact, and how the operator interacts with them in doing a job.   What can go wrong, and how to prevent it.  My reputation as a problem solver, and someone who can design a simple reliable, and efficient system, or a structural repair that lasts and eliminates the original cause rather than just being a "patch", or quickly go right to the heart of a problem on a system I am entirely unfamiliar with, depends on this.   I've been doing this for nearly 40 years.

          In my admittedly limited sailing experience, much of which dates back to the 60's and 70's I gained enough experience dealing with the limitations and work arounds necessary in sailing Bermuda rigged boats with stays and shrouds, and the incredible complexity of such systems with their countless components, the failure of any of which creates an instant crisis, that the free standing mast is a huge part of the appeal of the junk rig for me.   It is also one of the big structural problems, both from the standpoint of distributing the loads properly, and of building enough strength in without excessive weight and/or cost, and it creates practical limitations as far as aspect ratio. 

         Take away the free standing mast, and what you would seem to have left is a sail that is easy to reef, and lightly loaded due to the battens, and a sail you can build yourself, and that does not require winches, vang, traveler, or a track and cars on the mast.  You  may or may not need head sail(s).   You will still need running backstays for tacking, and a preventer(s) to protect your stays, shrouds, and boom.  And of course you have the issue of spreaders and diamond stays, and such, that barring some slight of hand that escapes me, would make it impossible to span the mast with battens and use parrels to attach them, so that the only attachment point possible for stays and shrouds must be above the yard.  This adds up to a heavier mast, as it must be loaded in column with nothing to hold it straight except it's own internal strength.   It is held upright by the shrouds and stays, which must transmit considerable compression loads to it due to the relative beam to mast height. It is a structural equation that doesn't look good to my eye... but what do I know??

            If things go according to my current plan, I will be able to claim some minimal experience in building and sailing a junk rig by the end of next summer....... perhaps not on the ocean yet.......but it's a start.    One of those huge reservoirs on the upper Missouri River, or Flathead Lake, perhaps even Puget Sound and the San Juans if I get the chance.   it's not much, but it's a start.  

         By the way...... I don't as you earlier suggested live on a sheep ranch, but I would not be ashamed to say that I did.   I love working with livestock when I have the opportunity, and am skilled at it, and nothing gives me more pleasure than bringing new life into the world.  I treasure those opportunities when I can step away from working on machines, electricity, and hydraulics, and deliver a newborn lamb or calf of foal into the world.   I do many and diverse things every year.  Breathing new life into a diesel engine built from diverse pieces...... as I recently did, is exciting, but does not compare to delivering new life into the world......... I find no shame in such ordinary things.... only joy!

         I understand that you sometimes find my comments annoying.  They are not intended to be.  I have great respect for your knowledge and experience, and your willingness to share that with anybody who is willing to listen and learn.  Your ideas, innovations, and experience have taken the junk rig to the next level, and are an inspiration to many of us.


                                                    H.W.

  • 15 Jan 2020 20:41
    Reply # 8583785 on 8568472
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    H.W.

    sometimes the second-best will have to do. Randy already had a stayed mast, and the step from there to having a junk mainsail is quite short. Knowing from my own experience that making and rigging the mast takes a lot more time (and cost) than making the sail, I can well understand why Randy wants to cut corners.

    It is a bit too easy to sit hundreds of miles from the sea, with zero JR experience, and instruct someone that this JR is good and the other is not. The bigger the sail gets, the more important becomes easy reefing. 

    Arne


    Last modified: 16 Jan 2020 09:12 | Anonymous member (Administrator)
  • 15 Jan 2020 19:04
    Reply # 8583053 on 8581725
    Deleted user
    Anonymous wrote:

    Ah, I see.
    Still, if Randy already has the mast etc. for a gaffrig, it is fully possible to replace the gaff-sail for a junk sail, and thus get the benefit of easy reefing, which the Wharram sail lacks  -  at least not in the size which would be needed for Randy’s trawler.

    Arne



     Arne:

                  Your link doesn't work.... it seems like such a waste to submit to the tyranny of stays and shrouds  ;-(  The lack of which is one of the HUGE benefits of the modern junk rig.   Leaving little beyond the ease of reefing and light fabric loading as the remaining benefits of the junk rig.

            Pete Hill, unfortunately rarely writes, so we are left to draw our own conclusions about his forays, but one of the more telling ones is the transition between his 3 rigs on Oryx , from a sort of "bastardized" Aerojunk, to a soft wing sail, and finally back to a proper Aerojunk............ The conclusion I drew from this was that the first rig just didn't perform to his satisfaction.    Not enough rig, and not very optimal on one tack.   The soft wingsail was pretty clearly an attempt to enhance /  maximize  the performance with his relatively small rig, that either didn't produce the desired result, or was difficult to reef... probably the latter, leading him to his final rig before he gave up on Oryx...... I'd love to know more, and combed Carly's blog for clues, which were entirely lacking...... A travelogue and not much more, but an excellent one.  

         My conclusion was that for one or more reasons, the soft wingsail, at least as Pete designed it was not worth the trouble.... the trouble being???


                                                       H.W.

  • 15 Jan 2020 16:20
    Reply # 8581725 on 8568472
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    Ah, I see.
    Still, if Randy already has the mast etc. for a gaffrig, it is fully possible to replace the gaff-sail for a junk sail, and thus get the benefit of easy reefing, which the Wharram sail lacks  -  at least in the size which would be needed for Randy’s trawler.

    Arne

    PS: If the link doesn't work, Go to this page

    https://junkrigassociation.org/arne/

    ..and click on "from gaff to junk", found under "Other techincal articles"

    Last modified: 16 Jan 2020 14:53 | Anonymous member (Administrator)
  • 15 Jan 2020 14:26
    Reply # 8580869 on 8568472

    Arne,

    I think Randy is talking about a Wharram wingsail, which is something else, really a Dutch gaff sail with a sleeve around the mast. That would make a lot of sense to me, on this boat. I don't think it would be worth going for any kind of junk rig.

  • 15 Jan 2020 13:30
    Reply # 8580472 on 8568472
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    Randy,

    I start with the conclusion: Forget about the wing sail. A wingsail, like  that on David Tyler’s Weaverbird, is a refined JR, mainly meant to improve on the upwind performance by producing a more consistent, high lift-to-drag ratio.
    Your trawler hull will not fly to windward with a wing sail more than a Land Rover Defender will fly around the Nürnbergring (..with any engine...).
    I suggest you go for a plain JR with maximum camber in the (two?) foresail(s), say 10 or 12%. This should produce enough drive on a reach (up to close reach), to both save fuel and keep you off a lee shore if the engine quits.

    Good luck!

    Arne


  • 15 Jan 2020 09:13
    Reply # 8578622 on 8568472

    Hello Randy,

    It's a pity that I'd forgotten that you were based in Killybegs, when I sailed into there last summer. I could have had a look.

    I'm not clear on how many masts you've ended up with, and where they're placed?

  • 14 Jan 2020 10:01
    Message # 8568472
    Deleted user

    Hi everyone, it’s been a while since I’ve posted here. I have a 50’ Irish ex-trawler, much like the Scottish versions they are originally modelled after. I had a full plan for a 3 masted junk rig done up by Alan Boswell, and I’ve shared it here, a bit... although I wasn’t for the life of me (even though I am techie person) could not post images of the designs.

    Anyway, five years into the conversion of the vessel from fishing to leisure vessel, one amazing trip to Scotland with my partner and all 5 kids and two dogs, and I’ve still A LOT of fitting out to do. The boat is all roughed up, and portions here and there are complete (Apholstery in dining area and chill out cabin, etc). But I do seriously have a lot more work ahead of me. I’ll easily hit 10 years to completion, I recon.

    The thing is, that with so much on the vessel still to do, it’s just me mostly, the rig I planned is just too daunting. But, I have a full gaff rig I bought off another trawler that was returning it’s life to fishing. So, I’d like to use that gear to setup my rig so we can shut the damn engine off and relax a bit! It’s the one thing we want to be able to do while under way.

    My partner and I are also very much environmentalists in the gentler meaning of the word...not extremists by any measure, and want to make use of the gorgeous wind, as sailers do.

    The whole wharram scene has turned my head dramatically... partially because I see what I might have made in the time I’ve been at it (not the best or most healthy practice, I know), but also the sail rig. James Wharram seems to have done a lot of experimentation with rigs, including junk, and settled on the Wingsail style he developed around the gaff and, you guessed it, airplane wings. The result is a very aerodynamic design that is also not over canvassed, making it safer.

    Anyway, I’m sure some of you have experienced Wingsails, and certainly you know Junk rigs. SO, now to my question:

    using my existing masts, which will sit in tabernacles on the deck and will be stayed, can I use a junk rig sail? With my thoughts and interests in the Wingsail, would that be another option? What concerns should I take in for either? How crucial is mast and sail placement for both? According to a Shipwright friend of mine, all the minutia used to place a junk rig in just the right place is not required for a straight gaff rig.

    There’s a start anyway. I’d love some thoughts on this.

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    Last modified: 14 Jan 2020 10:03 | Deleted user
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