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Galion 22 conversion

  • 15 Jul 2018 07:19
    Quote
    Reply # 6381758 on 6381631
    Anonymous member
    Anonymous wrote:
    Arne wrote:About magazine testimonials.

    Boating journalists hardly ever butch a boat. Their magazines depend on advertising  -  and the rule is: 

    “Don’t bite the hand which feeds you.”


    You're being a little bit cynical there.  When I had regular work with the yachting magazines, the rule was: "if you can't say anything nice about it, then we won't publish the boat test".  One or two production boats never did get a review ...

    Yes, yes, but what I was referring to were e.g. a PBO article from the 2000's in which they were reviewing the 60's Galion to find out if it was a usedul yacht in today's standards.
  • 15 Jul 2018 01:22
    Quote
    Reply # 6381631 on 6380956
    Anonymous member
    Arne wrote:About magazine testimonials.

    Boating journalists hardly ever butch a boat. Their magazines depend on advertising  -  and the rule is: 

    “Don’t bite the hand which feeds you.”


    You're being a little bit cynical there.  When I had regular work with the yachting magazines, the rule was: "if you can't say anything nice about it, then we won't publish the boat test".  One or two production boats never did get a review ...
  • 14 Jul 2018 20:36
    Quote
    Reply # 6381457 on 6381160
    Anonymous member
    Anonymous wrote:

    The simplest place to spot the lift and drag angles is at the Windex. The lift of the sail will by definition have to be at 90° of the arrows pointing direction, while the drag by definition points the opposite direction of what the arrow does.

    Now, if we manage to point and sail the boat as closely as 30° from the apparent wind, then we can decompose the lift and drag  force vectors (Fl and Fd) into two sets of force components running along the ship’s CL, and at 90° to it (I cheat a little, disregarding the little leeway angle of the boat)

    The sail’s lift, Fl, will produce
    a boat driving force of Fl x sin30° = 0.5 Fl
    It will also produce
    a boat heeling force of Fl x cos 30° = 0.87 Fl

    The sail’s drag, Fd, will produce
    a boat braking force of Fd x cos 30° = 0.87Fd.
    It will also produce
    a boat heeling force of Fd x sin 30° = 0.5 Fd.

    Only if the lift is sufficiently stronger, (say 3 or 4 times) than the drag, will this result in the boat going forward.

    If I get my sums right, and I guess that
    the sail’s lift/drag = 3.0, then..

    The resulting net driving force will be
    0.21 Fl  -  that is only 21% of the lift,

    and the total heeling force will be
    1.04 Fl  -  that is 104% of the sail’s lift.

    It’s a wonder we can sail to windward at all...



    Thank you Arne, I am about to sail from NW Spain, bound for England. A certain amount of the distance is likely to be to windward. I will look at my burgee with new eyes. (I had a windex, but it jumped off the mast).

    Asmat
  • 14 Jul 2018 17:02
    Quote
    Reply # 6381162 on 6381157
    Anonymous member (Administrator)
    Robert wrote:
    Anonymous wrote:

    Hardly any boat have so neutral helm that one can sail with the tiller free. One factor that prevents this is that more than half of modern boats are not directionally stable. You can check the latter this way:

    ·         On a calm day, motor at full speed in a straight line.

    ·         Then, stop the engine ( the best would be if it was swung up) and push the tiller moderately over to start a swing.

    ·         Take your hands off the tiller and see what happens.

    ·         If the boat’s swing gradually stops and the boat takes a straight course, then she is course stable.

    ·         If the boat keeps turning or even goes into a sharper and sharper turn, then it is directionally unstable. Such a boat will need a sort of tiller lock even if you manage to get the CE to CLR distance right.

    Hi Arne--I'm curious what the folkboat does in this test?

    Ingeborg, an almost FB,  certainly straightens out the course after step 3 in the test. When tacking her, one must hold the tiller over or she stops the rotation. Quite contrary with my friend's Athena 34: Push the tiller over to initiate tacking and then she takes over. At the end of the tacking we must give contra-rudder to fix her on the new course.

    Arne


    Last modified: 14 Jul 2018 18:39 | Anonymous member (Administrator)
  • 14 Jul 2018 16:57
    Quote
    Reply # 6381160 on 6381023
    Anonymous member (Administrator)
    Asmat wrote:
     The fact remains that boats with cambered sails heel more than those with flat ones. They are also less close - winded, but I concede that cambered sails are more powerful and make better progress to windward.

    I am not so sure about that. My first, flat junksail on my Albin Viggen, Malena, did never let me sail as closely to the wind as later cambered sails. Even when the wind was strong enough to be on the edge of needing a reef, we still pointed lower, although the performance gap was smaller in strong winds than in  light wind-conditions.

    My conclusion was therefore that the flat sail could never produce as high lift-to-drag ratio as the cambered sails. That is still my view. 

    Arne

    PS:

    The simplest place to spot the lift and drag angles is at the Windex. The lift of the sail will by definition have to be at 90° of the arrow's pointing direction, while the drag by definition points the opposite direction of what the arrow does.

    Now, if we manage to point and sail the boat as closely as 30° from the apparent wind, then we can decompose the lift and drag  force vectors (Fl and Fd) into two sets of force components running along the ship’s CL, and at 90° to it (I cheat a little, disregarding the little leeway angle of the boat)

    The sail’s lift, Fl, will produce
    a boat driving force of Fl x sin30° = 0.5 Fl
    It will also produce
    a boat heeling force of Fl x cos 30° = 0.87 Fl

    The sail’s drag, Fd, will produce
    a boat braking force of Fd x cos 30° = 0.87Fd.
    It will also produce
    a boat heeling force of Fd x sin 30° = 0.5 Fd.

    Only if the lift is sufficiently stronger, (say 3 or 4 times) than the drag, will this result in the boat going forward.

    If I get my sums right, and I guess that
    the sail’s lift/drag = 3.0, then..

    The resulting net driving force will be
    0.21 Fl  -  that is only 21% of the lift,

    and the total heeling force will be
    1.04 Fl  -  that is 104% of the sail’s lift.

    It’s a wonder we can sail to windward at all...



    Last modified: 14 Jul 2018 23:25 | Anonymous member (Administrator)
  • 14 Jul 2018 16:39
    Quote
    Reply # 6381157 on 6379868
    Deleted user
    Anonymous wrote:

    Hardly any boat have so neutral helm that one can sail with the tiller free. One factor that prevents this is that more than half of modern boats are not directionally stable. You can check the latter this way:

    ·         On a calm day, motor at full speed in a straight line.

    ·         Then, stop the engine ( the best would be if it was swung up) and push the tiller moderately over to start a swing.

    ·         Take your hands off the tiller and see what happens.

    ·         If the boat’s swing gradually stops and the boat takes a straight course, then she is course stable.

    ·         If the boat keeps turning or even goes into a sharper and sharper turn, then it is directionally unstable. Such a boat will need a sort of tiller lock even if you manage to get the CE to CLR distance right.

    Hi Arne--I'm curious what the folkboat does in this test?
  • 14 Jul 2018 13:37
    Quote
    Reply # 6381023 on 6380916
    Anonymous member
       when sailing fully close-hauled, the main contributor to heeling the boat is the lift, not the drag. Surprise, surprise..
    I am surprised. The fact remains that boats with cambered sails heel more than those with flat ones. They are also less close - winded, but I concede that cambered sails are more powerful and make better progress to windward.
  • 14 Jul 2018 11:34
    Quote
    Reply # 6380956 on 5070195
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    Jami,

    about weather helm.
    All the boats I have had, except Johanna would round up into the wind if I just let the tiller go. Johanna had a lee helm in light winds when close-hauled. As the wind picked up, the steering went neutral, and then she picked up weather helm as the others.

    The question is if the weather helm, rudder angle-wise, is acceptable or not. For normal upwind sailing, the rudder angle should be less than 5°, better 2°. If you generally need 5-10° rudder, you may have a problem. I notice that the stern of that Gallion 22 is fairly wide, which may suggest that she will develop more weather helm as heel passes 15° (.. as Asmat mentions below..). In that case, dropping a panel may do the trick.

    If you generally feel that you are sailing with the brakes on (big rudder angle), then, and only then would I suggest building a new, bigger rudder and fit it on the transom. I would in that case keep the original rudder, and lock it in central position to act as a course-stabilising skeg, and spare rudder.

    About magazine testimonials.
    Boating journalists hardly ever butch a boat. Their magazines depend on advertising  -  and the rule is: 

    “Don’t bite the hand which feeds you.”

    Arne

    PS: I hope you can do that course stability check I described above.

     


    Last modified: 14 Jul 2018 11:34 | Anonymous member (Administrator)
  • 14 Jul 2018 10:56
    Quote
    Reply # 6380916 on 6380882
    Anonymous member (Administrator)
    Anonymous wrote:

    In "Cruising Yachts: Design and Performance", Harrison Butler says that you can disregard the C of E and the CLR. What matters for a balanced helm is hull shape. A boat designed for good windward performance, with a lean bow and heavy quarters, will have more buoyancy at the stern when heeled, than at the bow. This will cause her to gripe.

    Unfortunately, one disadvantage of a cambered sail is that as lift is increased, so is drag. More heeling is the result.

    Jami, congratulations on your sail. I am impressed by what you have achieved.

    Cheers, Asmat


    That disadvantage, Asmat,

    can easily be be put right by dropping a panel. I find that my boats are faster to windward with one or two panels down, if there is wind enough.

    Btw, when sailing fully close-hauled, the main contributor to heeling the boat is the lift, not the drag. Surprise, surprise...

    Arne


    Last modified: 14 Jul 2018 10:58 | Anonymous member (Administrator)
  • 14 Jul 2018 08:59
    Quote
    Reply # 6380882 on 5070195
    Anonymous member

    In "Cruising Yachts: Design and Performance", Harrison Butler says that you can disregard the C of E and the CLR. What matters for a balanced helm is hull shape. A boat designed for good windward performance, with a lean bow and heavy quarters, will have more buoyancy at the stern when heeled, than at the bow. This will cause her to gripe.

    Unfortunately, one disadvantage of a cambered sail is that as lift is increased, so is drag. More heeling is the result.

    Jami, congratulations on your sail. I am impressed by what you have achieved.

    Cheers, Asmat

    Last modified: 14 Jul 2018 09:04 | Anonymous member
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