Converting a Pelorus 8m motorsailer

  • 05 May 2017 08:00
    Reply # 4815721 on 4789675
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    Funny that, Graham.

    As I understand it, a trimtab works against the rudder (while a servo pendulum tab works with it). Am I right that you don’t tack by just resetting the windvane, but rather lock the trimtab in line with the rudder before pushing the tiller over? In the latter case you have now got a big rudder to help Arion come about.

    Arne


    Last modified: 05 May 2017 08:42 | Anonymous member (Administrator)
  • 05 May 2017 02:14
    Reply # 4815387 on 4789675

    Re: tacking a junk-rigged yacht.  My boat, Arion is a heavy, long keeled vessel with a fairly large transom-hung rudder.  First I had a bermudian rig, then a cambered junk sail and now a flattish junk sail.  It always tacked like a dinghy in flat water with all three rigs, but was a bit slow at times in a choppy sea, occasionally missing stays if I did not time it carefully, putting the boat around in a smooth patch.  I did not notice too much difference in tacking between the cambered sail and the flat sail, though in the open sea I always fall off onto a close reach for a few minutes before tacking, to build up speed.  What is very noticeable is that the flat sail is a lot slower to accelerate out onto the new tack, to build hull speed back up after the manouvre.  But there has been an interesting development lately.  Last October, while on the slips, I increased the size of my self-steering gear's trim tab, or servo rudder, which is attached to the trailing edge of my rudder, by 60%.  I wanted more power in the system when running in a fresh breeze, as Arion loves being driven hard downwind.  I was amazed to discover afterwards that the boat tacks much more quickly now in the open sea.  So a big rudder certainly helps.  Here is what it looks like.  You can click on the image to see a bigger version.

  • 04 May 2017 22:06
    Reply # 4815028 on 4789675
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    Graeme, your progress plans make a lot of sense to me.

    Btw, when looking at that grp Pelorus, I see that she has quite nice lines, so I bet she will perform well up to, and including, a close reach. That boat actually resembles the 37’9” Hartley “South Seas”, which I am sure you know. Way back in the late seventies I participated on an intense and successful plastering day on one of them, so I dare say I know their lines quite intimately.

    You ask if a junk rig tacks with more difficulty than a Bermudian rig BR. My experience is yes and no: The first JR I had was with a flat sail, and that wasn’t so good. With camber fitted, the boat again felt as with the BR. With cambered sails fitted,  all my later boats come about as reliably as with the BR  -  and with much less fuss.

    Good luck!
    Arne

    PS: What is the tidal height in you place? In Stavanger it is a whooping 50cm, or less. That rules out the ability to scrub the boat at low tide.


    Last modified: 05 May 2017 07:37 | Anonymous member (Administrator)
  • 04 May 2017 01:37
    Reply # 4813117 on 4789675
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    Thank you for your reply Arne. I too have been unable to find out anything on the internet, although I have seen the stock fibreglass version many times around our coast – evidently the Pelorus design has been quite popular here. (If anyone is interested, I have added a photograph of a grp production Pelorus to my album here.) I have been unable so far to make contact with any owner and as winter approaches I have been hiding away up a tidal creek where I live (on the boat.) and have not yet tried her out under full sail.

    A local fleet of fine and much-loved displacement motor boats has evolved here on the North East Coast over the last 100 years, and if she were a “motor boat with an auxiliary rig” I would be quite content. However, in fact this boat does not quite belong to that category. Her hull shape is more that of a sail boat than a motor launch – I am sorry I was unable to send you a lines drawing so that you could see. It is a motor-sailer type of hull, a type which has been refined quite well in this country.

    However the draft is shallow, she has been given a small sail area, and (I agree with you) not a very suitable rudder. The size of the rudder is, hopefully, not such an issue – it is somewhat larger than a motor boat of this size would have and she seems very manoeuvrable, with a tight turning circle. (I drew the rudder in freehand as my side-on photo does not show it side on – maybe my artistry is not very good.) However, you are quite right to judge that this boat’s windward performance will be not very good. She is dragging a 4-blade propeller in an over-large aperture, with a balanced rudder which I do not like very much and would have preferred hung from the transom.  I expect she could potentially sail moderately well off the wind, and be rather sluggish to windward under sail alone. Clearly now, before any further speculation and before any changes to her rig, I must go and do some sea trials with what she has – and I will report back. I think she will tack under the Bermudian rig – we shall see. Does a junk rig tack with more difficulty than a Bermudian rig? I do hope not to be modifying the rudder or adding a mizzen.

    I understand and agree with all you say about expectations, and have noted your recommendation that the sail should be moved forward, and that generous camber could be allowed. I would like to ask you some more detailed questions, but clearly it is necessary first to get some better information about how she performs with the current rig. I too would expect that your junk rig design will be an improvement, especially off the wind and with the larger sail area. Thank you for your advice and I will report back.

    Rob – thank you too for commenting. I threw the tabernacle pin into the drawing at the last minute simply to indicate there would be one, and although I had given it quite a lot of thought I was not thinking when I made that last addition to the drawing and only realised after I had clicked “send” that the pin was above the boom. I guessed someone with sharp eyes might notice that – and I was not disappointed!

    I like the look of Arne’s high-peaked, modified HM sail design but am open to other planforms if mast-positioning or other factors warrant a re-think. In the meantime, before any further speculation, I had better put on some warm clothes and a woolly hat and go find out how she handles under her current, rather tired Bermudian rig.

    Thank you all.


    Last modified: 04 May 2017 02:14 | Anonymous member (Administrator)
  • 01 May 2017 23:04
    Reply # 4794448 on 4789675
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    Graeme,

    since I cannot find anything about your boat on the web, I must ask:

    Do you have any information about how the type sails?

    Her shallow draught, big, fixed, three-blade propeller and small rudder, makes me wonder if the designers and builders meant it to be a sailboat at all. She rather looks like a motor boat with an auxiliary rig to me. I struggle with imagining that she ever was able to come about with the original BR while dragging that propeller.

    I write this to find out what ambition level one should settle on. I think that  -  if I suddenly found myself as the owner of such a boat  -  I would rule out any serious upwind sailing. I would leave that to the engine. My guess would be that sailing 55 or 60° from the true wind would be the best one could ask for, depending on if the propeller was changed or not. With that ambition level set, I would optimise the sail for reaching and give it 10% camber. I agree with David Webb on shifting the sail well forward, and be prepared for fitting a little mizzen later. However, since I suggest avoiding pointing so high, there is less chance of getting a lee helm.

    That rudder is, as said, on the small side, in my eyes, in particular with a sloop JR in mind. A quick way to improve it is to fit a generous endplate to the bottom end of it. Even so, you may later find it to be a good idea to fit a larger transom-hung rudder.

    Arne

    PS: With the ambition level set and steering made ok, I think your boat will work very well with a JR  -  and far better than with the BR.


  • 01 May 2017 22:35
    Reply # 4794427 on 4789675
    Anonymous

    Hi Graeme,

    It looks to me as if you are on the right track and getting some good advice. The sailplan looks fine to me and the sheeting back to the stern will work. My only comment, and someone may have the answer, is that the tabernacle goes above the boom level. I can see the sail bundle being pulled over the tabernacle but when the sail comes down it could be a different story.

    Rob

  • 01 May 2017 13:15
    Reply # 4793527 on 4789675
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    Thank you Arne. I have redrawn the diagram and added a sort of scale. My drawing is not very good and also I had trouble scanning it. The drawing is here.

    The measurements along the bottom are from the stem, as follows:

    CoE at 3.3m      New CoE at 3.67m     CLR at 4.13m

    (Correction: the new CoE is in about the same line as for the BR. ie 3.3m)

    On this diagram the mast rake is 2% also there is an alternative mast position further aft, raked at 6% but probably too far aft. 

    I have scaled your 1.80 master plan slightly, using scale factor 5.00/5.077 and placed it so the CoE is 5% of LWL aft of the original CoE. (Correction the CoE is on about the same line as the original CoE)

    I am not sure if it is in the right place. I would really value any comments you like to make.

    Thank you for all the work you have done and sharing your expertise.



    Last modified: 11 May 2017 22:59 | Anonymous member (Administrator)
  • 30 Apr 2017 15:09
    Reply # 4792435 on 4789675
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    Graeme.

    I suggest you fit your drawing with some sort of dimension, a metre or foot scale or something. This would make it a lot easier to add constructive comments. It would not hurt if you add the basic dimensions including, displacement and ballast on the drawing as well.

    Cheers,

    Arne

  • 30 Apr 2017 10:56
    Reply # 4792254 on 4789675
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    Thanks David. That would mean shifting the sail forward about 15" and the balance would then go from about 10% as shown, to about 17% - and the lead would go from the about 7% currently shown on the drawing, to about 11% which, incidentally, is about what the boat has now with its current bermudian rig.

    The remaining questions are: how sensitive is the Arne 1.80 rig to an increase in balance, and how well does it sail with one or two panels down.

    (To see whether I have sorted the link problem, here is a new attempt to link to said drawing. And below is an attempt to embed a thumbnail of it.)


    Comment or criticism would be much appreciated.


    Last modified: 11 May 2017 22:57 | Anonymous member (Administrator)
  • 30 Apr 2017 10:14
    Reply # 4792247 on 4789675

    Hi Graeme,

    I had another look at your proposed sail plan and think that the mast should stay where you show it, and the sail should be moved forward, on the mast, so that a sling point on the yard 45% from the forward end is located just aft of the mast. If you install fixed luff parrels on the lower four parallel panels, a preventer from the forward end of the boom to the base of the mast, and a yard hauling parrel, this should be all the control you will need on the sail.

    If you feel that there may be a lee helm problem if you do this, then I would suggest installing a small mizzen on the transom with boomkin sheeting. This would also be useful, when at anchor, to reduce the amount of "hunting" that boats with masts well forward tend to do. It can also be designed as a wind vane self steering gear if you want, like Chichester had on Gypsy Moth for the first OSTAR.

    All the best, David.

       " ...there is nothing - absolutely nothing - half so much worth doing as simply messing about in junk-rigged boats" 
                                                               - the Chinese Water Rat

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