Converting a Pelorus 8m motorsailer

  • 17 May 2017 22:33
    Reply # 4838702 on 4838651
    Anonymous member (Administrator)
    Annie Hill wrote
    Arne, you can do a not-too inelegant 'retrofit' by wrapping some closed-cell foam in Odyssey and then - I apologise for this - gluing these parcels to the batten pocket with contact cement.  A $10 camping mat should do the trick.

    Sure, Annie,

    but the seastate I sail in are generally not that bad. My suggestion was more meant for ocean travellers and Kiwis...

    Arne


  • 17 May 2017 21:24
    Reply # 4838651 on 4837701
    Arne Kverneland wrote:

    There is one thing I have failed to do to my sails; padding the battens at the mast. I use to make separate fore batten-pockets from thick PVC at the mast. A simple improvement would be to make these oversize, to get room for wrapping the battens with some soft material. This would dampen some of the annoying noise when rolling about in an old chop in light winds.

    Next time, perhaps...

    Arne

     


    Arne, you can do a not-too inelegant 'retrofit' by wrapping some closed-cell foam in Odyssey and then - I apologise for this - gluing these parcels to the batten pocket with contact cement.  A $10 camping mat should do the trick.
  • 17 May 2017 21:21
    Reply # 4838646 on 4837472
    Bryan Tuffnell wrote:The effect of rake is perhaps more easily visualised by imagining a horizontal mast. In that case the sails would be kept from 'falling' past perpendicular to the mast by the sheets, and if the mast it allowed to sway, the weight of the sail against the sheets holds it steady. With a few degrees of forward rake the degree is different, but the principle holds.
    If you say so ...  Can't make head or tail of that explanation myself :-P
  • 17 May 2017 11:54
    Reply # 4837759 on 4789675
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    Thank you Brian for your explanation. I was thinking of a door, hung on  a door post which is not vertical - for example a refrigerator leaning forward (not sure quite why that comes to mind) - the door wants to fall into the open position, and stay that way.

    Annie, your point is taken - mine was a typical example of BR or gaff rig thinking.

    And Arne - you have been so helpful.Yes I think all my spars and battens will be metal and have been thinking quite a lot about materials for cushioning and padding. We have to admit, the petrochemical industry has given us a lot of interesting materials that can be used for all sorts of things.

    I have a 6" diameter rigid plastic tube (picked up from a dumpster somewhere, can't remember when) - makes a perfect mock-up for the mast, below decks. Trying it in different places. What a pity to encroach on a cosy little cabin in this way. Cause for a bit more thinking or maybe a re-think. What an interesting project.



  • 17 May 2017 10:57
    Reply # 4837701 on 4789675
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    There is one thing I have failed to do to my sails; padding the battens at the mast. I use to make separate fore batten-pockets from thick PVC at the mast. A simple improvement would be to make these oversize, to get room for wrapping the battens with some soft material. This would dampen some of the annoying noise when rolling about in an old chop in light winds.

    Next time, perhaps...

    Arne

     

  • 17 May 2017 06:05
    Reply # 4837472 on 4789675
    Deleted user
    The effect of rake is perhaps more easily visualised by imagining a horizontal mast. In that case the sails would be kept from 'falling' past perpendicular to the mast by the sheets, and if the mast it allowed to sway, the weight of the sail against the sheets holds it steady. With a few degrees of forward rake the degree is different, but the principle holds.


    Last modified: 17 May 2017 06:05 | Deleted user
  • 16 May 2017 10:08
    Reply # 4835776 on 4833149
    Graeme Kenyon wrote:Both you and Annie have commented on the need to keep the rig asleep (as far as possible) down wind and your points are also being filed away for the future. Annie is right about the awkward swell we sometimes get here on the Northeast Coast and I think my boat might tend to be a teensy-weensy bit rolly-polly - not too bad I hope - how does a junk rig respond to a temporary fore-guy on the boom in these conditions? (I think Siblim with her shallow draft and "adjustable roll dampers" is going to be rather superior in this situation, one more tick for Siblim.)
    Graeme - if you look at people's profiles, about their boats, you will find a lot of info about battens sizes, etc.

    It's not a great idea putting a guy on the boom.  They are not made for that sort of loading and besides, it's the yard that is the issue.  On pointy rig, it's the boom that crashes around, because it's the only (more or less) horizontal spar: on junk rig you've got half a dozen or more to keep asleep.  With a rake on the mast, the yard is well forward (at least, that's how my eyes see it) while the boom is in the same place. 


  • 14 May 2017 23:47
    Reply # 4833149 on 4789675
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    Thank you Arne for taking the time to make such full and helpful comments. I think the designer probably got the lead about right for the BR and since weather helm develops so quickly with angle of heel, I am going to follow your suggestion and place the junk centre of area forward enough to coincide with the centre for BR. As for mast rake, and mast position, that is looking more of a problem, I am going to mock up a new "mast" inside to see what I can live with, and since a lot of it is guesswork anyway I am going to let internal accommodation requirements be the deciding factor. I would now prefer to shift the mast right out of the forward cabin if I could. But that will give a sail-to-mast balance which is quite out of proportion and/or a ridiculous forward rake. I have not looked at sheeting angles yet but have a few hunches, and your comments are all being stored away.

    I am really looking forward to doing away with standing rigging. Your comments about the need for light weight battens and yard make sense, I will be using aluminium, what diameter and wall thickness do you use now?

    Both you and Annie have commented on the need to keep the rig asleep (as far as possible) down wind and your points are also being filed away for the future. Annie is right about the awkward swell we sometimes get here on the Northeast Coast and I think my boat might tend to be a teensy-weensy bit rolly-polly - not too bad I hope - how does a junk rig respond to a temporary fore-guy on the boom in these conditions? (I think Siblim with her shallow draft and "adjustable roll dampers" is going to be rather superior in this situation, one more tick for Siblim.)

    I am now going to try to make some more drawings, a  bit more accurate this time, and using the valuable information I have received so far, and a mock-up in he cabin, try to narrow things down to just a couple of alternatives. Thank you all.

  • 14 May 2017 11:12
    Reply # 4832344 on 4789675
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    Annie’s point makes sense, since so much of the coastal sailing in NZ is actually offshore (open waters, at least). Still, there are other factors that make the matters worse, or easier:

    Shrouds
    Shrouds prevent us from squaring out the sail properly downwind, and a half-squared-out sail will flick back and forth whenever it can. Therefore, rigging the boat with an un-stayed mast is essential. No disagreement here, for sure!

    Weight of yard and battens.
    The heavier they are, the more likely it is that they will fly around in a chop as the wind drops. These days I try to find thin-walled aluminium tubes of sufficient section for my battens. I also try to make a fairly light yard from aluminium.  Carbon would have been even better, but I don’t have easy access to that. The ideal is a sail with no mass at all, as this would let any wind there is dominate.

    Twist control.
    One of the things that can make the rig more resistant or vulnerable to “chop-induced” gybing back and forth is how the twist is controlled. If the top is squared fully out, while the boom is only squared out to 60-70°, then the lower area will want to backwind and gybe as the boat rolls (this is demonstrated on most gaff rigs lacking a preventer on the boom). Doing away with any twist is quite essential to minimise trouble when running before. In addition, the sail must be squared fully out, or even a few degrees beyond square, if possible. I think the Johanna-sheeting is good at this, but it requires quite some drift. I cannot sheet the furled bundle to the CL with my Johanna-sheeting (p.5), but I don’t care. As long as I can sheet the 3- or 2-panel top in for close-hauled sailing, that is good enough for me. An alternative is separate upper-lower sheeting, which, btw is less complicated to deal with than it sounds.

    Cheers, Arne


    Last modified: 14 May 2017 11:15 | Anonymous member (Administrator)
  • 14 May 2017 00:42
    Reply # 4831775 on 4831192
    Arne Kverneland wrote: Mast rake

    I generally aim on fitting the mast dead plumb, but if needed, I would not be afraid of tilting it up to 2° aft or as much as up to 5° forward. I would still rig the sail to sit with a vertical luff and leech, to minimise sheet tangle. The key is to decide on the correct position of the mast top. From there you can play with different mast lines to better suit the deck layout.

    Cheers, Arne

     

    Graeme, Arne and I disagree - mildly - on this point.  I think it has something to do with the waters we sail in.  I would find a mast with no forward rake very wearing when sailing along the coast with an E swell in light, following winds. The backwash from the shore often throws the boat around considerably and without a forward rake to the mast, the sail would be flung back and forth even worse than it generally is.  To me, 2° of forward rake is required - more is OK, but makes going up the mast awkward.
       " ...there is nothing - absolutely nothing - half so much worth doing as simply messing about in junk-rigged boats" 
                                                               - the Chinese Water Rat

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