Camber and induced drag

  • 09 Sep 2024 22:59
    Reply # 13404441 on 13403784

    Maybe a bee smoker?

    Can produce lots of smoke from cardboard, though they can get quite hot.


    I'm a beekeeper, so for once I might be able to offer some advice on this forum :)

    When smoking bees, you want the smoke to be cool, white and thick, and easy to control with the bellows. We use fuels that smolder slowly and pack the smoker so that it will last a long time, not burning too fast and not dying out when you need it the most (which of course it does). When resting, it should only release a whisper of smoke, and a few puffs should produce a nice cloud of smoke quickly.

    I test the smoke on the back of my hand before using it on the stinging insects, they do not like hot smoke in their face. The smoker itself does get very hot, so one should be careful not to put it down where it can burn or melt stuff. You shouldn't see sparks, but you might if you haven't loaded it correctly. A great trick is to stuff some green grass in the spout, acting as a filter.

    Packing, lighting and keeping a smoker lit is an artform that took me years to master. Everybody has their techniques and favorite fuels. My favorites are old pine cones, grey egg cartons and beech wood chips. The latter is the most luxurious – it smells great and lasts a long time, being the very same stuff they use to smoke meats.

    If I had to pick one, I'd go with egg cartons. I always carry it as a backup and use it to light the smoker. It might work on its own, eg. in a saucepan, if you want to give it a try. I wouldn't use cardboard.

    With all that said, why not invite a beekeeper on board? If I were in the area, I'd be happy to smoke your junk sails… Now that's a weird sentence.

    I agree with Jan, I would let the coast guard know you're not on fire, because it might look that way.

    Last modified: 11 Sep 2024 10:51 | Anonymous member
  • 09 Sep 2024 14:42
    Reply # 13404169 on 13397914

    Water vapour would definitely be least injurious to the sail material, though whether it would remain as vapour or condense after passing through a long-ish pipe with a cooling Force 3 passing over it is debatable.

    I definitely wouldn't use hot oil as a way to generate smoke.  The sail could be ruined.

    Maybe smoke from cardboard in a bee smoker would have cooled enough by the time it exits the pipe. Maybe not.  Plus you'd have to buy or maybe borrow the smoker.


    Don't know anything about the smoke tablets, if they burn to generate smoke or if its a chemical reaction.


    Dry ice maybe another option?

  • 09 Sep 2024 11:05
    Reply # 13404107 on 13397914

    David D., I am most thankful for your critical comment about ruining Ilvy's sail with smoke. That's why also I am strongly favouring water vapour over smoke. 

    If I would buy one of those machines, Mauro and Len, it will have to wait until our cruise is over (not a hindrance from my side to do it in winter. Water vapour will be better visible in cold weather anyways.). This is nothing to be done in one afternoon...

    Jan, that would be a reasonable action. However, if using dedicated vapour machines and a long smoke lance, I wouldn't expect the amount of smoke to be that huge.

  • 09 Sep 2024 10:30
    Reply # 13404103 on 13397914

    Probably a good idea to let the coastguard know what you are doing in experiments like this so they don't over-react when someone calls them. 

  • 07 Sep 2024 22:25
    Reply # 13403803 on 13403765
    Anonymous wrote:
    1. How to produce smoke? cheap, simple, possibly while cruising (not being able to buying the next best smoke generator online)
    2. Would water vapour instead of smoke do the trick, if done at night? A LED torch could be used to make the vapour more visible. Any experience with this?

    Smoke? easiest is a modified vape/e-cig whatever they are. Certainly those who use them in their car or even walking down the street leave impressive smoke clouds behind them  :(

    Water vapour is more expensive. There are lots of miniature smoke/fog machines available at Amazon but they are north of $50CDN. They work with the same atomizers as the "essential oil" foggers but are made for diorama smoke effects. So far as I know the liquid is just water with a bit of glycerine. (water is hard to see on it's own)

    A bit of engine oil dribbled over some rocks in a can that have been heated on the stove might work too. Thinner oil like 3 in 1 or sewing machine oil or baby oil might work better and be less environmentally disruptive. I know the smokers on aerobatic planes pump oil onto exhaust pipe... or used to anyway.


  • 07 Sep 2024 22:06
    Reply # 13403796 on 13397914

    …or a smoke machine…50€ on Amazon…portable ones for 100€…

    1 file
    Last modified: 07 Sep 2024 22:22 | Anonymous member
  • 07 Sep 2024 21:32
    Reply # 13403784 on 13397914

    Maybe a bee smoker?

    Can produce lots of smoke from cardboard, though they can get quite hot.

    Would be a good idea to test the temperature first though, of any smoke coming out of the long pipe to be used to direct the smoke.

    I'd be a bit nervous though of you ruining the sail with smoke damage

    I see there are also smoke pellets which are used to detect leaks in ducting

    A company in England sell them, (Smokepelletsuk.co.uk) so probably one in Paul S's area as well. 


    No idea how well they work, just thinking of potential options for generating smoke.


    Dave D.



    Last modified: 07 Sep 2024 21:37 | Anonymous member
  • 07 Sep 2024 20:41
    Reply # 13403765 on 13397914

    I agree on the smoke idea, thought of it, too.

    Few questions:

    1. How to produce smoke? cheap, simple, possibly while cruising (not being able to buying the next best smoke generator online)
    2. Would water vapour instead of smoke do the trick, if done at night? A LED torch could be used to make the vapour more visible. Any experience with this?
    3. Any objections to moored experiments? Running around on deck while underway with long sticks and possibly hot stuff sounds like a brave idea. Also, any waves would make it difficult to capture a stationary situation.

    The camera could be fixed to a stativ on deck, so both hands are free for the smoke lance.

    Last modified: 08 Sep 2024 05:22 | Anonymous member
  • 07 Sep 2024 19:30
    Reply # 13403755 on 13403735
    Anonymous wrote:

    Smoke would be clever, but once turbulent probably would not return to streamlined again.

    Wouldn't that still show the actual air? I have seen projects that use "vape" sticks as small portable smoke generators, replacing the air movement sensor with a switch.

    I think I was looking for a method of seeing what is going on without having to add telltales all over both sides of the rig. A telltale on the very thin end of the fishing rod might give some idea, particularly around the mast area on port tack (with sail on port side of mast).

    I think the idea is great over all though, telltale or smoke either way. I am not sure I would want to be holding both a rod and a camera that far forward  :(     One or the other so I could still hold on.


  • 07 Sep 2024 17:13
    Reply # 13403735 on 13397914

    You’re right, Ueli.

    I realised this shortly after posting the comment. I suppose the answer would be to use a short streamer and move the end of the fishing rod along the flow path to be studied. That might show if the flow changes from laminar to turbulent and back to laminar, or whatever. Smoke would be clever, but once turbulent probably would not return to streamlined again.

    I think I was looking for a method of seeing what is going on without having to add telltales all over both sides of the rig. A telltale on the very thin end of the fishing rod might give some idea, particularly around the mast area on port tack (with sail on port side of mast).

    As I say, it’s easy when sitting in an arm chair.

    Cheers, Slieve.


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