Camber and induced drag

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  • 11 Sep 2024 18:53
    Reply # 13405530 on 13397914

    Well, that tufting experiment proved very little, except that you can helm well, and thankfully cost you very little too, except time.

    TBH the only time I've seen my telltales (on the Bermudan rig) fly upwards is when I've sheeted in too much or heeled too much or if I'm really pointing a bit too high (on the jib).

    Maybe the higher pressure flow on the windward side to the leeward side occurs further out from the sail as the simple blocking effect of the sail and battens tends to straighten the airflow rearward right at the sail?.


    Maybe your videos will reveal more, when watched it slo-mo.


    Paul thanks, for doing it.


  • 11 Sep 2024 15:39
    Reply # 13405446 on 13397914

    Junk rig association returnee here unfortunately nowadays only able to sail an imaginary junk rig armchair. But many years ago when I was young I sailed back from France in a snow storm. It was in a pointy rig yacht but the flow of air through the slot could be seen, we played around with the sheeting positions to see the difference it made. Perhaps we could persuade a junk rig owner in the north to keep their craft in commision during the winter. Maybe funds could be made available to provide a bottle of Scotch to keep the crew warm.



  • 10 Sep 2024 21:29
    Reply # 13405240 on 13405193

    PS: Do you wear a smoking when smoking?

    A smoking jacket? I put on my finest bee-suit!
  • 10 Sep 2024 19:46
    Reply # 13405193 on 13397914

    Tufting Results

    Well, after a little more sailing I gathered quite some footage to be evaluated. I tested different courses to the wind, and always sheeted to have all leech telltales flying. Conditions were from F3-6, beam reach to close hauled, gentle seas (more or less).

    Today I went through all of the recordings, only to find that they all show the same: regardless of wind speed and course, all tufted telltales fly horizontally - at least with the sensors at hand: my eyes. It also didn't matter if on port- or starboard tack (only the two most forward measurement points were indicating the detached airflow on port tack, not shown in the sketch). The following sketch sums it up, with heeling corrected.

    Not that much learnt from this experiment, except that the air is flowing horizontally. Great, finally we got that secured...

    However, what I could observe clearly is that the telltales do not point more upwards on windward than on leeward - which would be my expectation when a tip vortex is formed. However, as my measurement method (eyesight) is rather rough, and the upwash and downwash due to the tip vortex forming is rather small, this tells us nothing.

    Hm. I do not trust this little experiment of mine. Too much noise, too rough. A lot of wrong indications could be drawn.


    It was, however, nice to watch this woolen horde stream happily while sailing :-)

    Paul



    PS: Do you wear a smoking when smoking?

    Last modified: 10 Sep 2024 19:46 | Anonymous member
  • 10 Sep 2024 17:11
    Reply # 13405119 on 13397914
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    Haha, Jan

    our Viking English may sometimes sound   -  er  -  different.

    Btw. how is your Norwegian?

    Arne...

    ..must go and smoke some herrings...

  • 10 Sep 2024 16:38
    Reply # 13405107 on 13397914

    I wouldn't go so far as to call myself a bee keeper but I did build two top-frame hives that I have in the orchard and the bees are welcome to come and go as they like! I very rarely smoke bees! (very hard to roll up in a rizla paper!) 


    Came across this while inventing something else entirely unconnected with sailing:

    Pyromaniac's dream...

  • 09 Sep 2024 22:59
    Reply # 13404441 on 13403784

    Maybe a bee smoker?

    Can produce lots of smoke from cardboard, though they can get quite hot.


    I'm a beekeeper, so for once I might be able to offer some advice on this forum :)

    When smoking bees, you want the smoke to be cool, white and thick, and easy to control with the bellows. We use fuels that smolder slowly and pack the smoker so that it will last a long time, not burning too fast and not dying out when you need it the most (which of course it does). When resting, it should only release a whisper of smoke, and a few puffs should produce a nice cloud of smoke quickly.

    I test the smoke on the back of my hand before using it on the stinging insects, they do not like hot smoke in their face. The smoker itself does get very hot, so one should be careful not to put it down where it can burn or melt stuff. You shouldn't see sparks, but you might if you haven't loaded it correctly. A great trick is to stuff some green grass in the spout, acting as a filter.

    Packing, lighting and keeping a smoker lit is an artform that took me years to master. Everybody has their techniques and favorite fuels. My favorites are old pine cones, grey egg cartons and beech wood chips. The latter is the most luxurious – it smells great and lasts a long time, being the very same stuff they use to smoke meats.

    If I had to pick one, I'd go with egg cartons. I always carry it as a backup and use it to light the smoker. It might work on its own, eg. in a saucepan, if you want to give it a try. I wouldn't use cardboard.

    With all that said, why not invite a beekeeper on board? If I were in the area, I'd be happy to smoke your junk sails… Now that's a weird sentence.

    I agree with Jan, I would let the coast guard know you're not on fire, because it might look that way.

    Last modified: 11 Sep 2024 10:51 | Anonymous member
  • 09 Sep 2024 14:42
    Reply # 13404169 on 13397914

    Water vapour would definitely be least injurious to the sail material, though whether it would remain as vapour or condense after passing through a long-ish pipe with a cooling Force 3 passing over it is debatable.

    I definitely wouldn't use hot oil as a way to generate smoke.  The sail could be ruined.

    Maybe smoke from cardboard in a bee smoker would have cooled enough by the time it exits the pipe. Maybe not.  Plus you'd have to buy or maybe borrow the smoker.


    Don't know anything about the smoke tablets, if they burn to generate smoke or if its a chemical reaction.


    Dry ice maybe another option?

  • 09 Sep 2024 11:05
    Reply # 13404107 on 13397914

    David D., I am most thankful for your critical comment about ruining Ilvy's sail with smoke. That's why also I am strongly favouring water vapour over smoke. 

    If I would buy one of those machines, Mauro and Len, it will have to wait until our cruise is over (not a hindrance from my side to do it in winter. Water vapour will be better visible in cold weather anyways.). This is nothing to be done in one afternoon...

    Jan, that would be a reasonable action. However, if using dedicated vapour machines and a long smoke lance, I wouldn't expect the amount of smoke to be that huge.

  • 09 Sep 2024 10:30
    Reply # 13404103 on 13397914

    Probably a good idea to let the coastguard know what you are doing in experiments like this so they don't over-react when someone calls them. 

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