Camber and induced drag

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  • 07 Sep 2024 22:25
    Reply # 13403803 on 13403765
    Anonymous wrote:
    1. How to produce smoke? cheap, simple, possibly while cruising (not being able to buying the next best smoke generator online)
    2. Would water vapour instead of smoke do the trick, if done at night? A LED torch could be used to make the vapour more visible. Any experience with this?

    Smoke? easiest is a modified vape/e-cig whatever they are. Certainly those who use them in their car or even walking down the street leave impressive smoke clouds behind them  :(

    Water vapour is more expensive. There are lots of miniature smoke/fog machines available at Amazon but they are north of $50CDN. They work with the same atomizers as the "essential oil" foggers but are made for diorama smoke effects. So far as I know the liquid is just water with a bit of glycerine. (water is hard to see on it's own)

    A bit of engine oil dribbled over some rocks in a can that have been heated on the stove might work too. Thinner oil like 3 in 1 or sewing machine oil or baby oil might work better and be less environmentally disruptive. I know the smokers on aerobatic planes pump oil onto exhaust pipe... or used to anyway.


  • 07 Sep 2024 22:06
    Reply # 13403796 on 13397914

    …or a smoke machine…50€ on Amazon…portable ones for 100€…

    1 file
    Last modified: 07 Sep 2024 22:22 | Anonymous member
  • 07 Sep 2024 21:32
    Reply # 13403784 on 13397914

    Maybe a bee smoker?

    Can produce lots of smoke from cardboard, though they can get quite hot.

    Would be a good idea to test the temperature first though, of any smoke coming out of the long pipe to be used to direct the smoke.

    I'd be a bit nervous though of you ruining the sail with smoke damage

    I see there are also smoke pellets which are used to detect leaks in ducting

    A company in England sell them, (Smokepelletsuk.co.uk) so probably one in Paul S's area as well. 


    No idea how well they work, just thinking of potential options for generating smoke.


    Dave D.



    Last modified: 07 Sep 2024 21:37 | Anonymous member
  • 07 Sep 2024 20:41
    Reply # 13403765 on 13397914

    I agree on the smoke idea, thought of it, too.

    Few questions:

    1. How to produce smoke? cheap, simple, possibly while cruising (not being able to buying the next best smoke generator online)
    2. Would water vapour instead of smoke do the trick, if done at night? A LED torch could be used to make the vapour more visible. Any experience with this?
    3. Any objections to moored experiments? Running around on deck while underway with long sticks and possibly hot stuff sounds like a brave idea. Also, any waves would make it difficult to capture a stationary situation.

    The camera could be fixed to a stativ on deck, so both hands are free for the smoke lance.

    Last modified: 08 Sep 2024 05:22 | Anonymous member
  • 07 Sep 2024 19:30
    Reply # 13403755 on 13403735
    Anonymous wrote:

    Smoke would be clever, but once turbulent probably would not return to streamlined again.

    Wouldn't that still show the actual air? I have seen projects that use "vape" sticks as small portable smoke generators, replacing the air movement sensor with a switch.

    I think I was looking for a method of seeing what is going on without having to add telltales all over both sides of the rig. A telltale on the very thin end of the fishing rod might give some idea, particularly around the mast area on port tack (with sail on port side of mast).

    I think the idea is great over all though, telltale or smoke either way. I am not sure I would want to be holding both a rod and a camera that far forward  :(     One or the other so I could still hold on.


  • 07 Sep 2024 17:13
    Reply # 13403735 on 13397914

    You’re right, Ueli.

    I realised this shortly after posting the comment. I suppose the answer would be to use a short streamer and move the end of the fishing rod along the flow path to be studied. That might show if the flow changes from laminar to turbulent and back to laminar, or whatever. Smoke would be clever, but once turbulent probably would not return to streamlined again.

    I think I was looking for a method of seeing what is going on without having to add telltales all over both sides of the rig. A telltale on the very thin end of the fishing rod might give some idea, particularly around the mast area on port tack (with sail on port side of mast).

    As I say, it’s easy when sitting in an arm chair.

    Cheers, Slieve.


  • 07 Sep 2024 16:41
    Reply # 13403728 on 13397914

    hi slieve

    Slieve McGalliard wrote:

    …A very long and thin streamer, attached to the end of a long thin fishing rod could be moved around a junk sail while underway and possibly give some indication of the airflow around the rig at various places…

    unfortunately there is a problem with long telltales: they lie!

    a long telltale may bridge a zone with an unattached chaotic stream without much movement if the end of it sits in a laminar region and stretches it!

    for serious research you either need many short telltales or some smoke out of the end af your fishing rod.

    ueli

  • 06 Sep 2024 15:52
    Reply # 13403396 on 13397914

    Just a thought.

    And here I am being an armchair theorist, a type of animal that’s not always liked.

    A very long and thin streamer, attached to the end of a long thin fishing rod could be moved around a junk sail while underway and possibly give some indication of the airflow around the rig at various places. It would probably be desirable to take very short videos of a few seconds at each point to be able to analyse what was going on. It would have to be a very long fishing rod to get near the mast head and show tip votices.

    Gee, it’s easy to sit in the warmth and get bright ideas.

    Cheers, Slieve.


  • 05 Sep 2024 22:15
    Reply # 13403119 on 13397914
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    Paul: "Slieve and Graeme reported (if I remember correctly) that with their SJR setup, there really only is the halyard and the sheet. Simplicity at its best."

    Getting away from the thread topic a bit, but for the record, that is not quite correct.  A feature of the SJR is that the batten parrels are running, not standing. The batten parrel lines are in spanned pairs to the deck, so on a Amiina rig you can manage with two lines which need to be adjusted along with any change to the halyard. If the batten parrel span itself is kept quite short, adjustment is not an urgent matter and just a tweak-till-firm is needed anyway, so not really an "adjustment". Still, we can not claim that only halyard and sheets are needed.

    I believe Steve's Serenity with split rig and D-former rigid batten parrels needs only a halyard and a sheet. (Also, due to the rigid batten parrels, that sail is able to break the yard-angle/mast-balance "rule of thumb" and that enables an unconventional planform). 

    Paul's comment (absence of the usual running lines) relates to planform, of course - not directly to the split.

    "So, when using high mast balance the call for huge rudders might fade away."

    Not quite, in my opinion. I think a single mast junk rig with no headsail might always tend to be a bit hard-mouthed on a reach or run, depending a bit also on the hull shape, but I never had any doubts from the beginning that I would always want as high a balance as possible. I grew up as a kid learning to sail on an over-canvassed cat-rigged little boat that was very hard to handle off the wind, needed all the rudder you could give it, and the prejudice has never left me.

    I always thought these down-wind antics were due to "all the sail area out one side" - but now we are using balanced rigs, Arne's take on it is: "the distance of the centre of area of the sail from the mast". I think it is to do with the distance between the centre of effort of the sail, and the centre of yaw of the hull - both rather elusive and variable critters. In practice, Arne's definition is good enough. So, a balanced lug should be easier on the helm than a conventional cat rig - and the more balance the better, from the helm point of view.

    What little actual experience I have with junk rig is restricted to coastal only, and on a relatively small boat. Some of this discussion, however, amounts to little more than basic geometry.

    (The downside of high mast-balance is that with conventional  planforms, a taller mast is needed for a given area of sail. The helm issue (distance of CoA from mast) can also be addressed to a small extent by going for high aspect ratio of course. But there again there is a law of diminishing returns as this too requires a taller mast if you want the same amount of sail area).

    Obviously sail design is a package - a judicious combination of solutions to many requirements - mast height, sail area, aerodynamic efficiency, ease of handling, simplicity of rigging, performance when reefed, behaviour in a seaway, proneness to "tangle-ups", simplicity of construction ... the deciding factor is not "this thing" or "that thing" - it's harmony.

    And, last but not least, another matter of simple geometry - the placement of mast position in the boat (often dictated by bulkheads, structure, interior accommodation etc). On a single-mast rig, mast placement virtually determines the mast balance of the sail, and all that flows on from there.

    Fortunately we have this range of possibilities which have all proven to be eminently workable.



    Last modified: 06 Sep 2024 06:10 | Anonymous member (Administrator)
  • 05 Sep 2024 21:43
    Reply # 13403104 on 13397914

    Fair play to you, Paul S,  that was really speedy work.  I wish I was half as productive as you.


    I wasn't expecting anyone to bother as it's only curiosity on my part to see what we could see.


    It will be interesting to see what emerges if you can get out on a sail in a nice F3


    Fair play again. 

    No "Procrastinator of the Year" award for you this year :-)



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