Choosing a boat for extended cruising

  • 16 Mar 2018 10:22
    Reply # 5981804 on 5981791
    Arne Kverneland wrote:

    Sailing stability and safety stability

    ... double chine designs ... and also used on Annie’s SibLim. This brings the cabin sole lower, and the shallow ballast shoe will ensure plenty of safety without too tall superstructure.

    Arne

    I live in hopes that someone will ask me to stretch the SibLim design out to 9 metres, using the same midship section, but setting the ballast stub keel a little lower. With a draught of 0.838m (2ft 9in) and a displacement of 4 tonnes, I reckon this would be my ideal extended cruising boat for one person - shoal draught, but not too shoal; not too much windage from high topsides (as is the case with the sharpies and dories); plenty of carrying capacity; enough stability for ocean-going; and a sleeker look than Annie's boat (for which the design brief was to stay within a given LOA). What's not to like?
  • 16 Mar 2018 09:39
    Reply # 5981791 on 5880436
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    Sailing stability and safety stability

    After having owned three ‘serious’ keelboats and two cb. boats, I have started to divide a boat’s stability into two categories: Useful sailing stability (max 30° heel) and safety stability (knockdown).

    My present boat (Marieholm IF, Ingeborg), with narrow beam and 58% ballast, has very little initial stability, and one must let her heel to 30° to get max power out of her rig. I have no stability curve for her, but I bet her max righting moment is found at closer to 90° heel, and is then huge. One could probably launch an IF upside down, and she would be likely to self-righten at once. The concept gives a very weatherly and easily-handled boat, but all that ballast will  slow her down when reaching and running.

    In total contrast, my last boat, the 6.5m Jollenkreuzer, Frøken Sørensen had no ballast at all. She only had a flat, wide bottom and then 740kg displacement to provide sailing stability. Her righting lever topped at 43cm when heeling 25°, and from 83° she would capsize. Frøken Sørensen coped surprisingly well, and was powerful enough to windward, much thanks to her low resistance ( She touched 5kts with a 2.3hp Honda), but in strong gusts, it was clear that there was little safety stability in spare. What saved us, was my fast sheet work, and that the cb. lifted out of the water, so we side-slipped when blown over to 45° heel.

    I happen to have Bolger’s book, “Boats with an open mind”. His trick to get maximum sailing stability (= power to windward), is to make square frames, and then add enough inside ballast to give enough displacement: Righting moment = displacement x righting arm.

    Since this internal ballast doesn’t bring the total CG very low, he instead made the topsides taller. This way the centre of buoyancy moves rapidly ‘upwards’ and ensures self-righting in a knock-down. The drawback is higher windage of the hull, but the AS29 has shown that the concept works.

    An alternative is to use Bolger’s double chine designs as on his 20’ Chebacco, 25’ Red Zinger, and also used on Annie’s SibLim. This brings the cabin sole lower, and the shallow ballast shoe will ensure plenty of safety without too tall superstructure.

    Arne

     


    Last modified: 16 Mar 2018 09:52 | Anonymous member (Administrator)
  • 15 Mar 2018 22:57
    Reply # 5981043 on 5880436

    Thanks, Bob.  I haven't looked at detailed drawings of your boat, so assume from what you say it had fixed ballast.   I have a friend with a Red Zinger here in Australia and it has a combination of water ballast in the keel and lead ingots in the bilge.  For such a large boat as Loose Moose 11, the external lead shoe sounds good to me.  I fell in love with an AS 29 in Sydney some years ago that sailed like a witch and scared the daylights out of the local inshore racing fleet.  Matt sailed it up and down the NSW coast regularly.  Unfortunately he died a few years ago and the boat is now on the market.  I'd consider buying it, but have been unsuccessful in finding a buyer for my current boat, Arion, a steel, Tom Thumb 24.

  • 15 Mar 2018 13:00
    Reply # 5980020 on 5979968
    Graham Cox wrote:

    I was looking at Bob's website and saw drawing for Bolger's proposed 11m sharpie.  It looked very exciting.  Then I saw the words on the drawing, beneath the cabin sole, water ballast.  That made me gulp.  I'd find it hard to go to sea without a bit of lead under my feet.  Perhaps I am just not open-minded enough! 

    The 11m sharpie with water ballast was an old "cartoon" of Phil's and I don't believe the design was ever finished. The design brief for this boat was as a maximum trailersailer able to be towed by a compact car which makes the water ballast seem like a good idea in this case.

    That said, Phil's larger Breakdown schooner (http://boatbits.blogspot.com/2012/12/just-good-but-not-great.html), which also used water ballast, was built and cruised successfully .so there does seem to be some proof that the concept actually works. I do agree that aa heavier ballast medium would be better if for no other reason that water ballast just takes up an unacceptable amount of interior space in a cruising boat.

    I suspect that, if I were going to build a sharpie for pelagic cruising based on the 11m sharpie cartoon in question, I'd ballast it with a combination of a lead shoe on the exterior land movable lead shot or ingots in ballast boxes in the interior if budget permitted or concrete and steel punchings if money was a factor.

  • 15 Mar 2018 11:48
    Reply # 5979968 on 5880436

    I was looking at Bob's website and saw drawing for Bolger's proposed 11m sharpie.  It looked very exciting.  Then I saw the words on the drawing, beneath the cabin sole, water ballast.  That made me gulp.  I'd find it hard to go to sea without a bit of lead under my feet.  Perhaps I am just not open-minded enough! 

  • 15 Mar 2018 09:34
    Reply # 5979875 on 5880436

    Anyone who wants  to check out Morejohn , here´s the link

    chrismorejohn.blogspot.dk

  • 15 Mar 2018 00:55
    Reply # 5979388 on 5978921
    David Tyler wrote:

    Thanks for setting me straight, Bob. Yes, it can be OK - if the boat is big enough: size matters. I've just found this interview between you and Dave Zieger, which goes into more detail:

    http://triloboats.blogspot.co.uk/2012/01/
    are-shoal-square-boats-seaworthy.html


    This is a really fascinating interview, thank you for providing the link, David, and thanks to Bob Wise and Dave Zieger as well.  I have seen a couple of AS29s (cute!) and was always intrigued by Loose Moose.  Very interesting to hear of her blue water adventures.  There is a strong body of evidence to support the notion that a shallow boat with lots of reserve buoyancy is a very seaworthy option.  And the fact that it does not roll at anchor adds to its temptation.  If you built again Bob, would you build another LM?(6 months seems pretty good!)  I am tempted myself.

    This discussion about the ideal cruising boat has certainly struck a nerve with JRA members!


  • 14 Mar 2018 19:53
    Reply # 5978926 on 5880436

    yes, quite the leap from IF to Box boat.

    This particular one  H-32 is 32ft, by 8ft with 18" draft board up disp 13000 lbs light,

    18000 lbs loaded.

     

    I'm just very intrigued by Morejohns designs.  

     

    lots of interesting stuff on his blogs 

  • 14 Mar 2018 19:45
    Reply # 5978921 on 5880436

    Thanks for setting me straight, Bob. Yes, it can be OK - if the boat is big enough: size matters. I've just found this interview between you and Dave Zieger, which goes into more detail:

    http://triloboats.blogspot.co.uk/2012/01/
    are-shoal-square-boats-seaworthy.html

  • 14 Mar 2018 19:34
    Reply # 5978907 on 5880436

    Just a quick note that Bolger's sharpies are very able and seaworthy beasts. We've sailed thousands of blue water miles without problem. Our last sharpie (Loose Moose 2) only drew .33 meters in cruising mode and our collective experience has convinced me that a very shallow draft is far safer when things get nasty with nothing underneath to catch and trip on.

    Also I should add that when we had Phil design Loose Moose 2 for us as our Bolger "Jessie Cooper" was just a bit too small and we really needed more tool storage as well as a dedicated office space, the boat design brief was for a boat able to do ocean crossings as well as to be non-problematic for areas like the European canal system and areas of very skinny water.

    Obviously a "box boat" is not to every ones taste but when you tally up the positives of a quick build (Our Jessie Cooper took 3 1/2 months to build and LM2 took us just a kiss over 6 months), a frugal cost, excellent internal stowage/livability, and performance under sail that surprised a lot of people, it is an option that deserves at least a bit of thinking outside the box to the advantages of sailing/cruising a box.

       " ...there is nothing - absolutely nothing - half so much worth doing as simply messing about in junk-rigged boats" 
                                                               - the Chinese Water Rat

                                                              Site contents © the Junk Rig Association and/or individual authors

Powered by Wild Apricot Membership Software