The "Sib-Lim" Challenge

  • 20 Feb 2015 21:36
    Reply # 3231041 on 3230557
    Jonathan Snodgrass wrote:

    I would guess that your total of GBP 20k approx would cover materials and parts. 

    I would guess, however, that it might need to be nearly all self help or free labour.

    I haven't a cat in hell's chance of employing labour except, perhaps, for some of the woodwork that I simply find beyond me.  Even if I could con someone into working at $25 an hour, I'd soon go through my savings.  This is one of the reasons why the boat has to be simple to build.

    I don't have my copy to hand because it is on our boat, but I seem to remember from Voyaging on a Small Income that your first build of Badger cost approximately GBP 6k.  I suspect that, adjusted for inflation, that would be well above GBP 20k nowadays.  However, based on a significantly smaller boat with a single mast rig, you might have a healthy margin.

    GBP10,000 actually.  Probably at least 30,000 today, but Sib-Lim is only 30% of the displacement, and, logically, that should be 30% of the materials.

    And you have somewhat less than half of your total projected capital available at the outset.  And I seem to remember reading about self building that there is a rule of thumb that the cost of the hull and deck is often about a third of the final cost of the boat.  (Measured in either currency or manhours.) 

    So, if you went ahead you might presumably be able to build a hull and deck to live-aboard standard from your savings.  And then you could have a floating home to move into to allow you to sell Fantail.

    My plan, if you could call it such a thing, would be to draw down on capital, once I'd spent my savings, to the equivalent of what I hope to get for Fantail.  I refuse to live on a part-built boat again.  Three times is more than enough!
  • 20 Feb 2015 21:31
    Reply # 3231039 on 3230326
    Annie Hill wrote:Oho, Hampus - another very interesting wee boat.  I was right in thinking there are a lot of clever people in the JRA.  I didn't quite work out how the rudder raised  - is the after end of its 'trunk' open?
    Yep, exactly. The aft end of the trunk is open to about half way up to allow the rudder to slide up a few centimeters above the skeg.

    Interior is coming along nicely. If it turns out that you want to see more the next step would be a lines plan and a 3D model. From the 3D model it will be fairly easy to do a preliminary calculation of how much material you'll need. From then on it's an iterative process to make everything work like interior layout, deck plan, hydrostatics, hydrodynamics, cost, stability, scantlings etc, etc.

    Last modified: 20 Feb 2015 21:32 | Anonymous member
  • 20 Feb 2015 15:21
    Reply # 3230557 on 3230341
    Annie Hill wrote:

     

     
    I can't do this at all accurately, but the figure in my mind is $NZ45,000.  $25,000 for Fantail, and $20,000 that I've managed to save I'm not quite sure how, as an alternative to insurance.  I am trying to save money every month from my small income, so the longer it takes the more I'll have!  If I decided to go ahead with the project, I'd start seriously scavenging for second-hand and bargain deals well in advance of building. Of course, the cost would have to take into account the rent on a building site.

    However, it is a meaningless figure outside this country.  Eight years ago, $45,000 would have translated to GBP13,500; a year ago GBP 23,850; today GBP21,600.  Maybe I could build this same boat for considerably less in the USA if I were prepared to use local plywood.  It would possibly cost less in the UK, but I'd have to pay more for a building space, perhaps. Who really knows?  Overall, I believe it makes the most sense to challenge my designers to keep all the costs to a minimum where compatible with longevity: it's not like anyone is under the illusion that I'm independently wealthy! 

    Annie

    Thank you for that. 

    In 'Voyaging on a Small Income' you were fully open about your finances. Indeed that was the intention reflected in the title.

    Might you have a third book in the offing:  'Boat Building on a Small Income'?

    I would guess that your total of GBP 20k approx would cover materials and parts. 

    I would guess, however, that it might need to be nearly all self help or free labour. 

    I don't have my copy to hand because it is on our boat, but I seem to remember from Voyaging on a Small Income that your first build of Badger cost approximately GBP 6k.  I suspect that, adjusted for inflation, that would be well above GBP 20k nowadays.  However, based on a significantly smaller boat with a single mast rig, you might have a healthy margin.

    And you have somewhat less than half of your total projected capital available at the outset.  And I seem to remember reading about self building that there is a rule of thumb that the cost of the hull and deck is often about a third of the final cost of the boat.  (Measured in either currency or manhours.) 

    So, if you went ahead you might presumably be able to build a hull and deck to live-aboard standard from your savings.  And then you could have a floating home to move into to allow you to sell Fantail. 

    I seem to remember that David Tyler had the hull of Tystie built by a boatyard.  But that is a much bigger and more complex hull.  However, hundreds of people built Maurice Griffiths Eventide 24s and 26s, from marine ply as self builds, often single handed.  (Indeed I used to own a MG 26 Athaena design, built very beautifully by one man in his spare time - but he was a cabinet maker.) 

    As you say, at the appropriate stage, you and/or your designer will therefore do the requisite costing of at least the materials for at least the hull and deck to make sure that it is compatible with your finances. 

    I, and I am sure many others, will continue to watch with great interest, and encourage from the sidelines!

    Cheers

    Jonathan  

     

     

     

    Last modified: 20 Feb 2015 15:23 | Anonymous member
  • 20 Feb 2015 04:48
    Reply # 3230341 on 3230029


    Jonathan Snodgrass wrote:In the current SIB-LIM Challenge the statement is "The boat has to be simple to build and inexpensive."  Well I doubt that anyone would state that the boat should be "complicated to build and expensive". 

    Well, Jonathan, I'd have to take issue with you on that.  Any boat that is built for really competitive racing these days will be both complicated to build and expensive.  In addition, there is an emphasis on being simple to build, which is due to my lack of skills: were I a more competent woodworker, this would be much less of an issue.

    But, unless I have missed it, I don't think that there has been any real discussion or analysis of costs of construction for various materials, methods and options in comparison with the money that might be available.

    It's very difficult for the designers to do an analysis of cost: only David Webb actually lives in NZ and prices vary tremendously from one country to another.  In addition, should the time and opportunity come together when I can build one of these designs, there is no knowing what might come my way - a cast-off mast for example; someone who's inherited a heap of plywood and doesn't know what to do with it; a job lot of milled kauri.  Such opportunities do happen, and when they do the poor designer might be asked to do some mods around them.  The thing is, if you are interested in boatbuilding, you have an idea of what is expensive and what is not.  For those who haven't been there, I would like to draw up an overall idea of the costs of each design, but that means the designer has to do a quantity survey and all of the designs are a long way from that as yet.

    And only Annie knows her finances.  Perhaps she should set some real financial parameters.

    I can't do this at all accurately, but the figure in my mind is $NZ45,000.  $25,000 for Fantail, and $20,000 that I've managed to save I'm not quite sure how, as an alternative to insurance.  I am trying to save money every month from my small income, so the longer it takes the more I'll have!  If I decided to go ahead with the project, I'd start seriously scavenging for second-hand and bargain deals well in advance of building. Of course, the cost would have to take into account the rent on a building site.

    However, it is a meaningless figure outside this country.  Eight years ago, $45,000 would have translated to GBP13,500; a year ago GBP 23,850; today GBP21,600.  Maybe I could build this same boat for considerably less in the USA if I were prepared to use local plywood.  It would possibly cost less in the UK, but I'd have to pay more for a building space, perhaps. Who really knows?  Overall, I believe it makes the most sense to challenge my designers to keep all the costs to a minimum where compatible with longevity: it's not like anyone is under the illusion that I'm independently wealthy! 

    Last modified: 20 Feb 2015 04:51 | Annie
  • 20 Feb 2015 04:22
    Reply # 3230328 on 3229454
    David Tyler wrote:
    Hampus Mattsson wrote:

    I like the profile view - very reminiscent of an earlier, smaller design, the name of which escapes me. Stone Horse, was it?

    Yes, indeed, very attractive.  Stone Horse.  Of course: Edey and Duff.
  • 20 Feb 2015 04:14
    Reply # 3230326 on 3229165
    Hampus Mattsson wrote:

    I uploaded a profile view of my suggestion in "Illustrations". The interior layout will follow within a few days. There is some text describing things on the drawing.

    Drawing here

    Oho, Hampus - another very interesting wee boat.  I was right in thinking there are a lot of clever people in the JRA.  I didn't quite work out how the rudder raised  - is the after end of its 'trunk' open?
  • 20 Feb 2015 04:09
    Reply # 3230323 on 3228089
    David Webb wrote:I should have my drawing board available in another four weeks or so, so will start drawing her up to scale then before we leave for Australia for the winter months.
    Well, David (W, that is: there are really far too many Davids on this thread!), I'm looking forward to seeing that.  It will be good to see the two designs side by side, so to speak.
  • 20 Feb 2015 04:05
    Reply # 3230322 on 3227393
    David Tyler wrote:
    Graham Cox wrote: It is the desirability of having the top panels cut flattish for heavy weather cruising (as one might expect in occasional forays to Stewart Island) that concerns me about the Pugwash type of sail plan.  It looks like a Van Loan style of sail, and the low-angled yard seems to me to be an inefficient shape when you are down to your last couple of panels, if it is flat cut.  If you need to sail efficiently to windward in strong winds and a developed sea, I think a flattish-cut, fanned peak, with a high-angled yard is more desirable.  As I said earlier, for daysailing, when you might expect to carry full sail, the criteria would be different.
    I think it's going to be "horses for courses", Graham. A basic boat with the possibility of different rigs for different skippers and different uses. Annie wants a rig with low loadings, David Thatcher wants a wing sail (so would I), and I don't see why any owner couldn't have what they fancy, within reason. 
    Now please don't hold me to the Stewart Island trip - it's another of my fantasies!  However, I do see Graham's point.  I, as you know, am a bit of a dumbo about all this aerodynamic stuff, but would you get enough height of flat sail with the Van Loan-type sail, as with a H/McL, if you needed to make to windward in strong winds?  Yes, I should like to reduce the loadings, but if that's the price for clawing to windward, then it's a price I'd have to pay.
  • 19 Feb 2015 23:23
    Reply # 3230162 on 3229454
    David Tyler wrote:

    Coming alongside might be a bit fraught, with the boards so exposed, and they really need to be canted inboard at the top, so that they dig deeper, the more you heel.

    You're right, she'll need more ballast. My understanding is that shoal draft boats like this need to be rather heavy, to give them some grip on the water - both for stability and so as not to blow around when manoeuvring in tight places.

    Yeah, if going alongside often is important the lee boards should be reconsidered. Canting them would certainlly be better from a hydrodynamic point of view but there are also a few downsides. They would have to run through the interior and take up some space. Construction would be slightly more complicated. During harbor maneuvres at least one of them would be drawn up to block part of the deck. Also, depending on the angle they cant, the friction might become an issue while raising or lowering them. Maybe to an extent that would require a trip up on deck each time you tack. No big issues though and if performance is key there'd be no doubt about it.


    Estmating the final hull, interior and rig weight, the ballast should probabe be around 1500 kg. Somewhere between 30 and 40% of the total displacement. Probably closer to 40...

    Last modified: 19 Feb 2015 23:23 | Anonymous member
  • 19 Feb 2015 20:31
    Reply # 3230029 on 3144241

    David

    OSTAR 40?  Sadly not.  At least for me. 

    It might be an interesting theoretical exercise but only that.  And I  have little doubt now that you and others could do the design job. 

    But I feel sure that the key to a further Challenge is that it should be a real Client with a real aspiration for a particular boat for his or her particular sailing requirements. 

    And ideally it should be someone who just might be able to build such a boat.  Therefore perhaps one of the critical parts of the statement of requirement should be a firm statement of the acceptable cost of building and equipping. 

    In the current SIB-LIM Challenge the statement is "The boat has to be simple to build and inexpensive."  Well I doubt that anyone would state that the boat should be "complicated to build and expensive".  

    But, unless I have missed it, I don't think that there has been any real discussion or analysis of costs of construction for various materials, methods and options in comparison with the money that might be available.

    And only Annie knows her finances.  Perhaps she should set some real financial parameters.

    Jonathan    

     

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