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  • 12 Nov 2020 18:12
    Reply # 9360778 on 9327660

    Thanks David and David!!!

    I'm going to go with the top gun 9. Seems to have a good record with both durability and sewability. I'm going to order something like twice my sail size in material. I'm assuming there is going to be a good bit of waist and majority of that from learning curve. Blue and white will be my collars and I'm excited to talk further about beefing up the top 2 panels. If anyone can recommend some literature on that... 

  • 12 Nov 2020 08:45
    Reply # 9359614 on 9327660

    David, we made the pair of sails for Footprints and Tystie from Hayward's Sunwing polyester cloth, which sadly is no longer available. It had UV protection - few regular sailcloths have this, and are not a low cost option if they do. I wouldn't use regular polyester sailcloth (Dacron and Terylene being brand names for the polyester fibre from which sailcloth is woven, not the cloth itself) for a cruising junk sail, unless UV protection was built into it. I would want a softer cloth that is happy to be left uncovered when not actually sailing.

    Jeffrey, Weathermax 80 is a good cloth, but is a bit tricky to sew. Topgun 9 would be a good choice. In your position, I'd be looking at  this and this . I've always had good results making sails from second grade cloth, as the flaws are generally cosmetic, not structural.

    Last modified: 12 Nov 2020 09:18 | Anonymous member
  • 12 Nov 2020 06:15
    Reply # 9359428 on 9359301
    Jeffrey wrote:

    I'm thinking I'll just end up with Dacron. Unless y'all think that there is a material that would last longer that is equal or less in price.

    Well I personally think that if you are going to make a sail you should use the fabric designed for this purpose, which is Dacron. This fabric has stood up very well on my previous junk rig yacht, 8 years and still going strong. However, many of our members have used other fabrics such as those you have mentioned, with varying degrees of success. The problem with regular sail cloth is that it is only available in white, sometimes if you are lucky a light cream colour, and sometimes a tanbark colour which is very traditional. If you want to add interest and colour you would need to select something other than Dacron.

    Making a sail is a lot of work, so with all the time and effort involved you would be best served to pay more to obtain a quality fabric which is going to provide longevity, especially if you are planning on extended cruising. Going cheap for short term savings can end up being very expensive in the long term.

  • 12 Nov 2020 04:38
    Reply # 9359301 on 9327660

    The bolk heads and mast step are all cut out and will be glued in as soon as wether permits.

    Change of topic here


    Sail material...

    Again; I have a sail plan for 305 ft^2  I plan on extensive cruising and ill be in NZ for extend time.

    My experience with cloth materials comes from a background in ultralight backpacking. DCF and sill nylon fall apart after 6 months outside. The only piece of gear that I have had hold up for any amount of time is my pack made from High Density Polyethylene –HDPE) reinforced nylon.  it was a black bag witch I'm sure helped stop UV dammige. The inside of the fabric was coated with silicone witch broke down but the  rest of the material held up very well to wear and tear. It is also cheap. 10$ a yard

    I was reading about this wether max 80 and it sounds like a good fit for me. Looks like I can get it about 15$ a yard. Not cheap but not too bad. 

    Sunbrella- too expensive

    Top gun-too heavy

    Top notch 9 ??? 

    I'm thinking I'll just end up with Dacron. Unless y'all think that there is a material that would last longer that is equal or less in price.

  • 03 Nov 2020 20:57
    Reply # 9343164 on 9327660

    David!

    This sounds great! I'll do just that. I think that the mast I have ordered is straight up and down at the bottom there. (no taper) I still think this is the best way for me to accomplish this task. I would emagin that it gives me a little wiggle room when stepping the mast as well! Thanks for sticking with me through this. Very cool of ya. 


    The wedge is one of man kinds finest invention. I have picked up a 13 ton pice of concrete with nothing more then a a stack of oak wedges and a big hammer... Big hammer being the second best invention hahaha

  • 03 Nov 2020 08:25
    Reply # 9341910 on 9341413
    Jeffrey wrote:

    David!

    Thanks for clarifying. I believe I understand what you are saying ,but I drew a picture to help make sure of it. (Figure 1) I also drew a picture of my original idea just to help clear up any confusion.(figure 2). I would still like to keep a gap in between the keel and the underside of the mast steep but if you think this is not an option I can reconsider the showering with my my head out of the forward hatch. Now here in Chicago, it is hard to get my hands on any hardwood and I don't have any mill to turn it. I do have friends that would be able to make it out of aluminum though and I could have a plug made with a piece of square tube stock welded to that? Could you maybe recommend a size and thickness of tube stock? That is if you think it would be doable?

    The sketches have helped me better to understand the proportions of what you're doing. It's a very different geometry from the kind of round-ish hull section of many GRP boats.

    You're right, there is so much contact area on the sides of your plywood stack that you can afford a gap underneath it.

    We all have to work with whatever tools, materials and skills we have to hand, so if a hardwood plug is not so easy, we have to look elsewhere.

    I don't like the thought of a fabricated aluminum end plug, because I don't see how it can easily be tapered.

    So I come back to your fig. 2 sketch, but with some taper in the hole, to suit softwood wedges. What I would do is:

    1. Put in a piece of 3/4in plywood (well coated with epoxy) on edge between the two bulkheads, with its top horizontal. 
    2. Bond a piece of plywood horizontally onto this, stretching from bulkhead to bulkhead, and bonded to the hull sides. Make two large holes, either side of the vertical plywood, for cables and drains. Flow-coat this deeply with epoxy, as the tube will rest on it.
    3. Now build up the stack, maybe five layers of 3/4in plywood. The first layer to have an octagonal hole in it, 8.5in across flats. Subsequent layers to have an octagonal hole a little larger, until the top layer has an octagonal hole 8.75in across flats.
    4. Soak the end grain with neat epoxy, then fill the steps in the hole flush with epoxy filler so that there is a reasonably smooth, tapered, eight-sided hole.
    5. Make eight softwood wedges with a taper to match, 5/16in thick at the bottom, and long enough that there is something to get hold of to extract them when the mast is to be un-stepped.
    6. Add the brackets and through bar to prevent rotation and lifting.

    How does that sound?

  • 02 Nov 2020 23:55
    Reply # 9341413 on 9327660

    Graeme!

    Oh yeah! That guy is really something. I am going to use the self steering wind vane that he designed! Definitely an inspection to me. But don't fret my friend. When me David Taylor talks, I shut my mouth and lesten. And listen good too! For example...


    David!

    Thanks for clarifying. I believe I understand what you are saying ,but I drew a picture to help make sure of it. (Figure 1) I also drew a picture of my original idea just to help clear up any confusion.(figure 2). I would still like to keep a gap in between the keel and the underside of the mast steep but if you think this is not an option I can reconsider the showering with my my head out of the forward hatch. Now here in Chicago, it is hard to get my hands on any hardwood and I don't have any mill to turn it. I do have friends that would be able to make it out of aluminum though and I could have a plug made with a piece of square tube stock welded to that? Could you maybe recommend a size and thickness of tube stock? That is if you think it would be doable?

    Ueli!

    Thanks for your modesty. Davids advice is good as gold. I attached some works of art to help clear up any confusion.

    Thanks everyone for helping me through this. It's really exciting for me! Thanks a million!


    3 files
  • 02 Nov 2020 22:34
    Reply # 9341290 on 9327660

    Zane, the answer to your question is "yes"

    Jeffrey, I feel a little stupid chiming in with that previous post, but it was motivated out of concern with what I thought was your plan to to lock the mast down with thru-mast fittings at the partners. Never mind, you now have a much better analysis from David, with some very detailed advice.

    I found a series of videos (I can't find a home page) about a Contessa 26 called Wave Rover, stripped down and re-built for a circumnavigation. Seems to have been inspired by Mingming ll in one respect. Maybe you are aware of the series.




    Last modified: 02 Nov 2020 22:48 | Anonymous member
  • 02 Nov 2020 09:16
    Reply # 9339801 on 9338962
    Jeffrey wrote:

    Uele!

    I'm sold. I'm going with the 7/32" mast. There is a 6 month back order on it but it is made locally with makes me happy. Thanks so much for the advice. I was told that I need to have a 4-5 in well for the mast steep. I can only go down 3 inches below the original height of the floor. It's going to be tight getting around the 8 in mast as it is. Do you think I can get away with the 3" Barry or do I need to build it up?

    David!

    Thanks for the advice. That sounds like the easiest way to go about securing the mast. Wold you recommend a size hole for both the mast step and partner? (the mast is 8 in. OD) The mast will have fiberglass under it and I'm planning to epoxy the end grain in the wholes, but should I glass it as well? I have been told putting some Spartite into the mast step helps reduce squeaking noise. Sho I leave a little wiggle room to allow for the Spartite?

    Karl!

    I most definitely do not need my mast to rotate. I'm going to go with Davids advice on this one.why do you have yours rotate? Also, I'm planning on running my electronics through the bottom of the mast. The plan is to drill a 1 in hole down through the floor of the mast step and glue a funnel into the bottom of the mast to help direct the wire into the hole. The floor of the mast step will be floating 2 in off the keel to allow water and electric lines to move forward and aft of the boat. Also to keep standing water from contacting the plywood that the mast step is made of.

    To summarise: what you are trying to do is:

    1. to stop the mast rotating.
    2. to stop the mast heel moving from side to side.
    3. to stop the mast heel lifting.
    4. to get the electrical cables out of the mast heel conveniently.

    Item 2. is difficult with mating parallel surfaces. It's best to use wedges to fix a parallel mast into a parallel hole, or to have a tapered mast heel going into a tapered socket. My solution on Weaverbird was:

    1. to make a mast step of layers of wood and plywood, securely glassed into the hull with no air gap underneath it (important, to provide vertical support for the mast). This mast step has a roughly cut rectangular hole in it. The outside of the step is epoxy coated.
    2. to put a hardwood end plug into the bottom of the mast tube, fixed in with polyurethane sealant and having a rectangular-sectioned, tapered bottom section to match the rectangular hole in the mast step, with a gap of about 3/16in all round. This tapered end plug to be smoothly finished with epoxy and then thoroughly coated with release agent, wax and/or PVA, when the mast is stepped.
    3. After mast stepping, polyurethane casting compound was poured into that gap. It bonds to the mast step, but not to the heel of the mast.
    4. Just above the top of this hardwood end plug, there is a hole in the mast tube that both lets out the electrical cables and acts as a water drain. This is better than trying to go though the bottom of the step.
    This method prevents rotation, prevents the noise of the end of an aluminium tube grating from side to side in a loose step, and only needs the brackets and through bar to prevent lifting.

    I suggest that an 8in mast heel/step ideally has a depth of engagement of 4in, but 3in will do if space is tight. The square or rectangular tenon that I describe would have sides of about 5.5in.


    Last modified: 02 Nov 2020 12:11 | Anonymous member
  • 02 Nov 2020 08:54
    Reply # 9339764 on 9327660

    Graeme wrote:

    A very experienced ocean sailer set out from these shores some years ago - but overlooked the need to secure the mast at the heel. Unfortunately the yacht inspector who signed it off and gave him clearance over-looked it too (as he told me). The boat was lost in rough seas in the vicinity of Great Barrier Island, before even reaching deep water, due to the mast lifting off the mast step and punching through the bilge.

    This is a junk rig boat this happened to?



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