S2 6.7 Junk Rig Conversion

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  • 19 Nov 2018 08:39
    Reply # 6913627 on 6913221
    Scott wrote:

    David, 

    Thank you for the suggestion to use load-spreading patches with the Odyssey material. If I understood correctly this would mean only two triangular patches. One in the upper most panel all the way aft (peak) and one in the upper most panel all the way forward (throat). Is my understanding of the throat and peak correct? I have to say that describing the material as having a 'high proportion of filler' is making me rethink using this as sail cloth. I am interested to know what cloth you personally recommend for a 22 sq ft sail.

    Your understanding is correct. But use more than one patch in each place - two or three is usual at points of high stress, smaller patch first, then larger on top.

    The conventional choice will always be polyester sailcloth, which after all's said and done is made for the job in hand. 4 -5 oz would be right for your boat. Most of them only come in 36in width, which is inconvenient if you want to get a whole panel out of one cloth. Boring white is available in 58in width. 4 oz in sailmaker's measure = 5 oz/sq yd. Sailmaker's measure means one yard of length at 28.5in wide - don't ask why, the reason is lost in the mists of time.

    But we're not conventional, and there's a point in making junk sails from soft UV resistant cloth. These are heavier than 4 oz, but I don't have any problem with that - I'm using 9 oz/sq yd cloth on Weaverbird. Weathermax 80 is still a front runner, if you can work around its tendency to pucker when sewn along its length. That's easy if cutting a barrel-cut 2D panel lengthwise from one cloth, as the only sewing is along the batten seam, and puckering is actually good, as it gathers up some unwanted excess of length in the edge. 

  • 19 Nov 2018 00:32
    Reply # 6913221 on 6872873

    David, 

    Thank you for the suggestion to use load-spreading patches with the Odyssey material. If I understood correctly this would mean only two triangular patches. One in the upper most panel all the way aft (peak) and one in the upper most panel all the way forward (throat). Is my understanding of the throat and peak correct? I have to say that describing the material as having a 'high proportion of filler' is making me rethink using this as sail cloth. I am interested to know what cloth you personally recommend for a 22 sq ft sail.

    Arne,

    From what I gather you have ripstop nylon in mind. I like the idea of avoiding UV damage issues by making the sail out of a protective cover like Odyssey. On the other hand this might not be such an important feature when I am only sailing a short part of the year. I have not been able to find the specific weight of the cloth that you have used. On sailrite I see 0.5 oz and 0.75 oz and 1.5 oz ripstop nylon. Just to keep it interesting these weights are 'per sailmakers yard'. I guess this is one yard of the 60" wide material? I am interested to know what your choice would be for a 22 sq ft sail as well.

    It is hard for me to know when it is time to stop and think before moving forward with this project and when it is best to make a decision and keep going. I would like to make this the best sail I can make and feel good about the results so I do not want to rush too much. On the other hand it seems like I could spend years just thinking about what cloth to use.

    Edit: This Silpoly fabric looks very interesting to me. It is polyester. It has a ripstop weave. The specs claim lower water absorption and increased UV resistance compared to ripstop nylon. It is lighter than Odyssey and it is coated on both sides. Does anyone have experience with this fabric?

    Last modified: 19 Nov 2018 02:19 | Anonymous member
  • 18 Nov 2018 08:55
    Reply # 6912440 on 6872873

    Scott,

    Keep in mind the bad experience that some of us have had with Odyssey, due to its high proportion of filler to woven cloth, I think. It doesn't seem to enjoy the cyclical diagonal loadings which happen in the throat area. This is not to say it can't be used, but to advocate load-spreading patches at throat and peak, just as you'll see in the corners of any bermudan sail.

    The thread should be V69 bonded polyester. Using the same colour disguises crooked stitching, using a contrasting colour highlights it, but helps later in the sail's life, when broken stitches need to be re-done. Perhaps a compromise is to choose a thread colour just a little darker than the cloth colour. 

  • 17 Nov 2018 23:47
    Reply # 6912245 on 6872873
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    Scott,

    my uninformed guess is that you now, after having made those patterns, have risen to be the local authority in the field.

    It is correct that the Odyssey III is now called just Odyssey.

    As for thread, use what the experts at Sailrite recommend.

    I used Odyssey III on the 20sqm sail for my Frøken Sørensen. It worked, but on a sail this small, a lighter cloth would be preferable, if available.

    Anyway, good luck,
    Arne


  • 17 Nov 2018 23:30
    Reply # 6912210 on 6872873

    Hi Arne,

    Thank you for the help and support. I have two of the four paper patterns drawn. I would not say that I am now 'good' at making patterns, but I am probably about as good as I will ever be. The maximum rounding points are where they should be at 0.35B and there is a straight taper to the leech. 

    It would be really great if there was someone anywhere near me that could take at look at these big paper drawings and tell me if they look approximately correct. I have not had much luck capturing the pencil lines using my cell phone camera. All the pictures look like big pieces of paper taped together, the lines are not clear. Since it seems like I am the only would-be junkie in the region I guess checking all my numbers three or four times through the whole process will have to be enough.

    I hope you or someone else can check a few assumptions I am making. I have seen 'Odyssey III' mentioned here on the JRA forums. The only product I find with that name is called simply 'Odyssey' without the 'III" at the end. I assume that this is the same material. Will the material currently made by Marlen Textiles called 'Odyssey' be acceptable for sail cloth? I like the way it looks and feels on the sample card. As long as I am careful to keep the shiny (coated?) side of each panel on the mast side I think it will look really nice.

    As far as thread goes I have been assuming that I can just get a spool of whatever sailrite.com suggests as the best match for the Odyssey color I order. Does this sound like a good plan or do I need to make sure I get something with specific material properties such as strength and size? Would a contrasting thread color be better than a matching color for some reason?

    I am slowly making progress ... I think.

    Scott.


    Last modified: 17 Nov 2018 23:32 | Anonymous member
  • 13 Nov 2018 19:54
    Reply # 6903085 on 6872873
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    Scott,

    if that (lengthened) spline is curved as it looks (and to the calculated max round), you will be all right. Personally I add another nail or two closer to the luff to increase the curve of the spline there, but I don't torture the spline in any way, and I make sure that i don't move the max. camber point forward of the planned 35% from luff.

    Arne

    Last modified: 13 Nov 2018 19:57 | Anonymous member (Administrator)
  • 13 Nov 2018 18:57
    Reply # 6902933 on 6872873

    Arne,

    I will double check the length along the battens, and the luff and the leech for accuracy.

    Will something the size of the trim in my pictures, but longer, make an appropriate rounding shape?

    Scott.

  • 13 Nov 2018 10:16
    Reply # 6902214 on 6872873
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    Scott

    I guess I would give highest priority on getting the length along the battens the same, and then the length of luff and leech. If they are ok, a diagonal a bit off can only mean that the rise angle is not exactly right. That is not such a big deal. Weather the rise angle is 9.7°, 10.0° or 10.3°, is hardly noticeable (but it shows on the diagonals). This practice will ensure that the luffs of the four lower panels are straight, and that the panels fit together along the battens.

    When bending that spline to get the right round, I place a nail at that 40% point. The idea is that the spline should not need to be forced into position at the aft end, but ‘find’ its position, thanks to the ‘40% nail’.

    Accuracy:
    Remember that this is not rocket science. We should be very satisfied with approaching 3-diget accuracy, and in most cases two digits is the best we can do. I mostly make my drawings with millimetre resolution, but am more than happy if I get close to the nearest centimetre during lofting and sewing.

    The problem with getting the patterns perfect, only shows that practical construction of stuff is very different from producing accurate (computer) drawings. When I developed my ‘chain calculator’ method for finding the needed round and camber, others soon developed computer programs to do the job better. They surely produced results with impressing numbers of digits, but my guess is that the needed fudge-factors built into their algorithms did not produce more accurate camber than my primitive chain method does.

    Finally, this shows the superiority of using paper patterns  -  much cheaper to do errors on paper than on the canvas ...

    Arne


  • 13 Nov 2018 01:46
    Reply # 6901837 on 6872873

    Thank you for the feedback, Arne.

    Truth be told I used an Excel spreadsheet to do all the scaled calculations. I found your advice sound. It was easier to print out and mark up your master sails than to try to get a precise drawing in QCAD.

    I am in need of some assistance. I have the parallelogram for Panel 7 (the one with the boom at the bottom) lofted full size on some red rosin paper. After using the baseline and rise method I ended up with one diagonal that is right on the expected length and the other being off about 3mm. Unless someone advises me otherwise I will assume that 3mm is OK that not spend time looking for what corner is not completely square. 

    I am now attempting to loft the round in this panel. The only other curve I have lofted was on my Puddle Duck. The rocker on that boat plan has 7 stations for an 8-ish foot long rocker. It was almost impossible to get the curve wrong.

    I have a nail at the tack, one at the max round point and one at the leech of the boom. I also see a note from Arne that the aft 40% of the round should be a straight line. I am really puzzled on how to draw the correct curve using only three points. It seems that the minimum I need is an additional point marked at the start of the 40% aft section that should be straight. That would allow me to clamp a bendy batten to 4 points and get a deterministic shape.

    I am also wondering if the 'batten' (the least expensive trim I could find at the home improvement store) might not be stiff enough for this task. I expect the stiffness will change the shape significantly.

    Is there something obvious that I have overlooked for this part of the full size paper lofting? I attached a few photos in case that is helpful. I expect I need something longer than the 8 foot trim I have now. I have put off buying a longer length of trim until I have some confidence that it is the right thing to use.

    Right now I am really happy that I did not go for a fan sail with many different panel shapes. Making 4 patterns is going to be plenty of work!

    Thank you in advance for any help.

    Arne, I saw in a different thread that you are back home after a hospital stay. I hope you are doing well and recovering.

    Scott.

    Last modified: 13 Nov 2018 01:54 | Anonymous member
  • 09 Nov 2018 11:46
    Reply # 6896213 on 6872873
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    Scott, you seem to follow exactly the procedure I hoped that users of Chapter 3 and 4 of TCPJR would use (..note that i wrote users, and not readers…). In other words, print out the master sailplan you fancy, and then spend an hour with a calculator to scale up or down the sail. Maybe not as elegant as when using a CAD program, but you will soon be ready for lofting patterns, this way. That is what this is about.

    Arne

    Last modified: 09 Nov 2018 19:43 | Anonymous member (Administrator)
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