Windvane selfsteering gear questions

  • 19 Oct 2012 20:00
    Reply # 1108547 on 673518
    I will not only aver that the trim-tab worked well on Badger, I shall also say that I believe it worked better than either of the servo-pendulum gears (Aries and Hasler) that preceded it.  On the passage that David remembers, we were pushing the boat hard to beat a forecast westerly change - running at about 7 knots under as much sail as she would stand.

    Another advantage of the trim tab is that it doesn't catch on things like fish pot floats and kelp.  The servo paddle is a real nuisance in seriously kelpy areas.
  • 19 Oct 2012 11:44
    Reply # 1108142 on 673518
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

                                                                           Stavanger, Friday

                           Different boats, different needs

    One of the main messages in Bill Belcher’s book about windvanes (see Newsletter 51, p20) is that one should assess the boat’s handling carefully before deciding on type of self-steering gear. The idea was to get away with as simple gear as the boat type would allow. The two main factors discussed were the power needed to steer the boat and the feedback needed to avoid that the selfsteering gear should over-correct, resulting in a constant zigzagging course.

    A well balanced boat with good yaw-damping and a good balanced rudder can be handled by a gear working directly on the tiller (see NL 51 p16 about "Reggy the Regulator") while other boats, which are more demanding to steer in general, may need the powerful, but also more complicated servo pendulum gear.

    On boats with an outboard rudder Belcher often recommended using a trim tab, driven by the smaller version of his horizontal shaft vane. This vane is plenty powerful enough to overcome friction.

    I sailed for two summers with this windvane ("Otto" a smaller version of "Reggy") on my 23’ Malena. It steered Malena surprisingly well and was easy to rig and alter the course with. I used it on a trip across the North Sea, but also regularly for day-sailing. One of the assets with the direct drive was shown each time I came back from a sail and was to lower the (Bm) sails. I then sheeted both sails in for close-hauled sailing and then had Otto pinch a little closer, but without backing the genoa. Then I could go forward and when dropping the genoa it would fall perfectly inside the rail. After securing it temporarily I lowered the mainsail. The boat would now, if un-tended, turn for a downwind course, but Otto pushed the tiller to the lee so Malena was parked beam-on. This gave me all the time I needed to sort out the mainsail and start the engine.

    When Malena got the JR, Otto was soon made a pensioner, and that for two reasons:

    When sailing on a reach and when close-hauled the boat would steer well enough with a locked tiller, and furling the sail was, as you all know, so quick that no help was needed.

    On the downwind leg Otto was not able to stand up to the yawing forces produced by the new, big, single sail. I guess Otto could have controlled Johanna better, since her balanced rudder makes the tiller forces so light, but I still think that the bigger "Reggy" version would have been better. Have a look at the photo of Otto. The vane was very easy to fit and take down, thanks to the long, needle-type, horizontal shaft and the hook-on steering lines. Also, a steering wheel can be spotted which made course setting very easy. Finally, note how the counter-weight can be shifted up or down. The rule is; bottom-heavy vane for upwind work and top-heavy vane for downwind work.

    Arne

    PS, the day after: Inspired by Annies's letter below, I attach a photo of Badger's windvane which I took during a rally in 2006. Obviously, something must be right with that thing since it has been in use for so long and over so many miles. When was it built and who designed it? Here is another of Badger. Next to dead calm, but still enough to (just) inflate the panels.

     

    Last modified: 19 Aug 2019 09:32 | Anonymous member (Administrator)
  • 19 Oct 2012 00:23
    Reply # 1107643 on 673518
    Arion has a trim tab self steering system with a vertical vane.  You can see the base of the vane and the linkage to the trim tab in photo 35 in my member album.  This gear was already built when I bought Arion's hull and it has served me well, with some modifications.  Because the vane is mounted up high, it has also allowed me to fit dinghy davits for coastal sailing.  However, having made an ocean passage with an Aries, I can affirm that its power and performance was much more effective than a trim tab system.  I have seen some second hand Aries gears for sale in Australia for around $1500.  

    A trim tab will work though, if it is well designed and you don't mind a little yawing at times.  I had to really loosen up the bottom bearing in my trim tab, (read rattling loose) to reduce friction and I also moved the trim tab 400mm aft of the trailing edge of the rudder to increase leverage.  The vane needs to be offset on its own bracket and a differential linkage to the trim tab shaft devised (visible in my photo).  I also have a pin to lock the trim tab fore and aft when motoring astern and can avow that when I occasionally forget to put the pin in, the boat becomes unmanageable.  The vertical axis vane I have is also a lot less powerful than a horizontal vane. It loses efficiency quicker in light airs and therefore needs to be much larger, thus being more vulnerable in stronger winds.  The Pardeys have a system where they reef their vertical axis vane in strong winds.  Mine has been known to shake violently in a squall, though it suffered no damage.  Hiscock reported similar behaviour in his vertical vane on Wanderer 111.

    If you do find a second hand Aries you may need to replace some of the bearings, in particular the one at the top of the servo pendulum leg, which has a tendency to seize up.  Getting the bearing out may require a customised wheel puller.  Hammering the stainless pin risks cracking the cast aluminium frame.  Other than this, these gears will last forever, until some idiot runs into your stern in a marina.  Being able to remove and stow the gear on deck when in port is worth considering.  Trim tab systems are easy to build and repair, but I think you could get the same advantages in a custom built stainless steel and plywood servo pendulum gear.

    I link my autopilot into the trim tab for light, variable following winds, or when I am motoring or motor-sailing.  I have seen this set up on an Aries too.

    So to summarize:  If all considerations were equal, I would choose a servo pendulum system.  However my trim tab system suits my particular set up.  It is not as efficient as a servo pendulum gear but it works.  I never steer the boat, apart from close quarters manouvering.  Steering is against my religion!  
    Last modified: 19 Oct 2012 00:34 | Anonymous member
  • 18 Oct 2012 18:25
    Reply # 1107370 on 1107021
    Gary King wrote:Still undecided which to build (the Jan Alkema vane still requires a framework on the stern). 

    So I'm wondering about the performance of the trim tab. Apparently they are slow to resist yaw, so this means trim tabs give up the ghost in following seas while a pendulum servo keeps chugging on?
    I tried to analyse the Jan Alkema gear on paper, to get a grasp of the amounts of movement under different conditions, and where the negative feedback was put in, and found that I just couldn't do it. It's much easier to understand a trim tab or pendulum. I'd need to make one of these gears to understand it fully. 

    Yes, when you get down to working out how much you actually have to make and mount on your boat, the Alkema gear doesn't reduce it very much, if at all. 

    Annie will aver that the trim tab worked perfectly well on Badger. I once had the privilege of running down the English Channel in fresh conditions on Badger, and noted that while it was satisfactory, a good pendulum servo would have been better. A good pendulum servo always beats a good trim tab, downwind, because of its yaw-resistance; and a good trim tab rapidly turns into a bad one if there is some marine growth in the bottom bearing. Free movement is absolutely vital. Trim tabs are easier to make, but don't work quite as well as pendulums - just another of those cases where "you pays yer money and you makes yer choice".
  • 18 Oct 2012 09:50
    Reply # 1107021 on 673518
    Deleted user
    Still undecided which to build (the Jan Alkema vane still requires a framework on the stern). 

    So I'm wondering about the performance of the trim tab. Apparently they are slow to resist yaw, so this means trim tabs give up the ghost in following seas while a pendulum servo keeps chugging on?
    Last modified: 18 Oct 2012 09:50 | Deleted user
  • 11 Oct 2012 23:49
    Reply # 1101348 on 673518
    Daniel,
    I've had a look at the photos in the gallery attached to the technical forum.
    That's a very nice piece of work, and I like the way you've got the linkage to the trim tab tiller without having to have fixed extensions on the boat protruding way aft. Very clever. 
    Could I suggest that you think about having a strong locking pin to hold the tab central? It comes in very handy when you have to reverse in a tight spot. Without it, the tab tends to take charge.
  • 09 Oct 2012 17:29
    Reply # 1099154 on 1098751
    Daniel Johnson wrote:yep photo not showing . ahh well.
    Daniel,
    Try putting your photo in the gallery attached to the technical forum:
    Last modified: 09 Oct 2012 17:58 | Anonymous member
  • 09 Oct 2012 12:07
    Reply # 1098751 on 673518
    Deleted user
    yep photo not showing . ahh well.
  • 09 Oct 2012 12:06
    Reply # 1098750 on 673518
    Deleted user
    not sure if you can see this photo but this is what i came up with. works well a mixture of various designs and my own: it drives a trim tab.

  • 07 Oct 2012 22:48
    Reply # 1097195 on 1095916
    Gary King wrote:

    But Jan Alkema's most awesome invention, is the upside down 
    windvane (USD). No counter weights to clock you on the head, 
    small in size and always vertical.

    I could see certain theoretical advantages in the USD vane, and just over a year ago, I made one. I had one or two sails with it that indicated that it worked. Then I happened to be moored in a strong wind, and the vane was in such a position that it was the "wrong way round", with the wrong end of its axis to the wind. It tried to go clear over the top, and because no kind of linkage is going to stand up to that treatment, it stuck 180 degrees from it's normal central position, and self-destructed. A conventional "Right Way Up" vane lies gracefully down though 90 degrees to a horizontal position, and relieves the load on itself. 

    I salvaged the components, and re-cycled them as a RWU vane, which is now giving good service on Fantail.
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