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Flat Sails are Still Okay

  • 21 Jun 2013 19:00
    Quote
    Reply # 1324067 on 1323255
    Anonymous member
    Paul Thompson wrote:
    Sam Rossiter wrote:We have a flat sail in good condition and a limited budget.

    Is it even worth considering trying to add camber to this existing sail? Or would it be less trouble to start from scratch?

    Guy's can I bring to your attention what Sam's original question was (it's quoted above)? He was not asking for opinions re the flat versus cambered debate (and he should really have started a new thread). He wanted to know if it was worth modifying an existing flat sail so as to create a cambered sail. He did not ask what our opinions where on the subject of flat versus cambered.

    Going off on a rant about whatever type of sail that you may favour is simply not answering the question.

    Nuff said :-)

     
    Paul,
    Surely opinions backed up by experience of flat and cambered sails, can help a person decide whether to make a flat sail into a cambered one. This thread contains heaps of useful discussion on the issue Sam showed interest in, including your detailed posts on the topic. I've read no rants. The 'versus' is all tinged with humour. I see no problem.
    Kurt
    Last modified: 21 Jun 2013 19:03 | Anonymous member
  • 21 Jun 2013 17:17
    Quote
    Reply # 1323990 on 594527
    Deleted user
    Graham, I noticed you touched on style of sailing, which is a very important point. If the boat has a good inboard with power at the press of a button, flat panel sails would be fine. I'm aware Kurt has his "instant on" electric motor so he's happy. But skippers relying on an outboard or plain engineless are best served by cambered sails. I hope Ashiki being a light displ. vessel would have good performance in light airs as we dont plan to carry so much fuel, maybe 2 or 3 cans, for our not so convenient outboard in a well.

    I can't help thinking that (engineless) chap who took 2 weeks to get around a headland and several weeks being swept backwards in the S China Sea might have fared a lot better had he converted to cambered panels sooner.

  • 21 Jun 2013 00:14
    Quote
    Reply # 1323415 on 594527
    Anonymous member
    Paul, if Sam is considering changing from a flat sail to a cambered one, then I think he might benefit from, and even enjoy hearing the range of opinions on the subject of flat versus cambered sails, which include discussion of development issues. 

    I must make a confession however.  I am about to go cruising in a few weeks and am in a cheeky mood.  My comments were a little tongue in cheek.  I do like my cambered sail and have no intention of changing it at this stage.  I have got it working just fine with my extra fixed parrels, though I will continue to fiddle with it as I go along.  I may even try the standard PJR standing luff parrels again at some point, as well as putting back a full-length yard.  As Kurt says, it is the sail I have got and I am having fun with it.  I do suspect though that for my style of boat and cruising, especially since I now have a reliable diesel and use it enthusiastically when coastal cruising, a flat sail would be good enough.  I certainly wouldn't consider putting camber into a perfectly good flat sail at this stage of my knowledge.  I may go back to a flat sail later, depending on how I feel with more experience.  When I started my project in 2011 I knew even less.  The benefit of these fora to people like Sam is that he can consider our opinions and develop his own. 

    I also realize that an ETAP 26 is a performance boat that would respond well to a cambered sail, and that the Med is a place with a lot of light winds, though most people I know who cruise there do a lot of motor-sailing in those conditions, which would make the flat sail less of an issue.

    I note that Alan on Zebedee, with several thousands of miles under his keel with his new sails, seems happy with them, although he notes that there is a lot more strain on the ends of the battens, which could do with stronger stitching.  I also note that David on Tystie, while he was in Tahiti, reflected that perhaps 'flattish' sails would be best for ocean cruising.  We coined an amusing phrase, to be taken, as always, with a pinch of salt:  flat sails for ocean cruising, cambered sails for coastal.

    Fair winds to you all.
    Last modified: 21 Jun 2013 02:47 | Anonymous member
  • 20 Jun 2013 21:31
    Quote
    Reply # 1323277 on 1319919
    Anonymous member
    Arne Kverneland wrote:
    Another reason could well be the forward rake of your mast. When you lower the sail, naturally the halyard will always want the sail to fall forward and thus create negative batten stagger. The fact that forward rake works well on the lo-AR fanned sail of Fantail, may not be a proof that forward rake is also good on a medium-high AR Hasler-McLeod sail.

    Arne, I do not buy into the argument that forward rake creates problems. La Chica has 1.5 - 2 deg. rake in the main and around 4 - 4.5 deg. in her  foremast. Both sails set well and stack without any issues. Aphrodite also had similar amounts of rake in her masts. Her sails did not set as well or as easily as La Chica's do but her problem was to do with the angle of the yard versus the amount of balance. If Carl had kept her, I would have changed the yard angle to a somewhat steeper one. However there was no issue with batten stacking.

    With regard to Graham's stacking problems, I think you need to look elsewhere for the culprit.

    BTW. The battens can easily be prevented from moving to far forward by using a standing luff parrel. They do permit the battens to move a little further forward  than the "Paul Fay" parrel (by verture of creating more slack as the sail comes down but mast taper will take some of that back if the mast is tapered as per PJR) but they also have less friction.

    Also, you do not need to rig a standing luff parrel between each batten, only every second set. On La Chica I have just two on each sail. They take care of the bottom panels and have very little load.
    Last modified: 20 Jun 2013 21:43 | Anonymous member
  • 20 Jun 2013 21:17
    Quote
    Reply # 1323255 on 1321679
    Anonymous member
    Sam Rossiter wrote:We have a flat sail in good condition and a limited budget.

    Is it even worth considering trying to add camber to this existing sail? Or would it be less trouble to start from scratch?

    Guy's can I bring to your attention what Sam's original question was (it's quoted above)? He was not asking for opinions re the flat versus cambered debate (and he should really have started a new thread). He wanted to know if it was worth modifying an existing flat sail so as to create a cambered sail. He did not ask what our opinions where on the subject of flat versus cambered.

    Going off on a rant about whatever type of sail that you may favour is simply not answering the question.

    Nuff said :-)

     
  • 20 Jun 2013 20:07
    Quote
    Reply # 1323185 on 594527
    Anonymous member
    Gary, your sails will be great! And better because once they're the ones you're sailing under you'll get the best you can out of them and accept it.

    Sam, I thought of 2 ways Joker's sail may be worse if you add fabric camber or tuck-and-sew camber into it.  

    First, you'll change the reefing-furling characteristics. This will show especially since your rise angle is higher than in standard Hasler-McLeod sails, and the battens are fanned. Probably fine as it is now, tuned by Sunbird if I recognise your rig correctly.

    Second, the boat will heel more. If I were living on a 26 foot boat, I'd give that some importance. 

    The difference I'd predict, the numbers not very seriously, is that 6% of the time you'd sail 10% faster and 7 degrees closer to the wind, heeling 5 degrees more. If you then reefed to keep the dinner on the stove you'd do almost as well as you would if you'd left your sail as it was. And, heeling isn't steady only. Gusts affect a more powerful sail more powerfully.

    But I love projects too. The one way I think you could add camber without degrading the sail you have, is to use hinged battens, or invent smooth-bend-and-stop ones. (see the article on flat-cut sails in issue 61...) Sunbird Marine has put their hinged version into similar sails before. The 3 battens above the boom are what I'd try. And I'd keep the old battens.

    Are you enjoying this discussion, Sam? 
    Sharpened your scissors?

    Cheers,
    Kurt


    Last modified: 20 Jun 2013 20:13 | Anonymous member
  • 20 Jun 2013 15:35
    Quote
    Reply # 1322921 on 594527
    Deleted user
    ok.. OK, OK, OK!

    You guys like flat sails, I get it.

    I have in some ways compromised on this. Ashiki's main, now finished has a more modest camber. Only 6% (true camber). The foresail, panels already cut, are 7%. Close to half the camber of some member's rigs. The main sits on a dead vertical mast, so shouldn't need those extra parrels. The foremast is at 4˚ rake,  so we'll see how that goes.
  • 20 Jun 2013 14:09
    Quote
    Reply # 1322858 on 594527
    Anonymous member
    Yay, go Kurt!  I watched Zebedee tack up Trinity Inlet in Cairns in 2009, a somewhat restricted waterway.  I think he was the only cruising yacht to tack into the inlet the whole time I was there.  The others motored in.  Ok, so Zebedee doesn't have an engine, but HE DID IT!  Cambered sails are more close-winded in light air, no argument, which makes them superior in those conditions (and those conditions alone).  That may be important in some situations, but the point is, flat sails are good enough.  It depends on your priorities.  And as Kurt says, they aren't really flat if you have some twist in the fanned top.
  • 20 Jun 2013 08:45
    Quote
    Reply # 1322707 on 594527
    Anonymous member
    Well,

    If our schooner shows any hesitation to tack, I let the foresheet go just as I start to steer her 'round, then sheet in as we go through the wind. We only back the foresail by hand to enforce starting off on the best tack when sailing off anchor. If she ever doesn't tack, it's because her flat-panel sailor was distracted or something, and ready to admit it. No thruster. 

    Our mehitabel tacks smartly even in light air, and sails to windward with authority, given a breeze. Am I simply uniquely, unfairly lucky? I hope not.

    Sheesh. I never could have lived so long with a boat that needed new sails just to tack! There must be some very unlucky schooners. By contrast, Joker is a handy little 26 foot sloop, something to envy. 

    I can't bring myself to suggest that people on a budget with a sailing trip to undertake should recut their sails rather than risk being stuck with flat ones. Even though they aren't. Flat. Just look at the fanned battens in Joker's sail. Twist 'em a bit in the wind, before cutting them apart. 
    What is it they can't do?

    My message to Sam & Naomi remains, "No. Not worth it, I think. Other small and cheap measures will likely reward you more." 

    Projects are wonderful and fulfilling, though, even turbo-charging the sedan. Sailmaking is especially fun. Go for it, of course, if you want to.

    Flat sails are still okay.

    Cheers,
    Kurt

    Last modified: 20 Jun 2013 08:54 | Anonymous member
  • 20 Jun 2013 07:33
    Quote
    Reply # 1322664 on 594527
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

                                                                  Stavanger, Thursday

    Sam, there is one cheap, simple and safe way of putting some camber into your existing sail. You simply crimp it a bit at luff and leech by sewing in tucks. This photo shows the result of modifying a flat sail with tucks. You can read the whole story, written in 1993(!) in Newsletter 26 p.12 – 17. The resulting sail, although with a moderate camber, was still a lot better than when it was flat. The wonderful thing with this method is that you don’t risk anything as you can easily modify the sail back to flat. The only drawback with the tucks/folds method is that the whole sail crimps so it may be an idea to add a panel afterwards to get back the original sail area. If you do the mod, I recommend that you fit telltales at the leech of each panel. These will warn you against over-sheeting and stalling the sail.

    Good luck! Arne

    PS: After you have tested your sail and found that you like it and want to keep it this way, I think it would make sense to add a boltrope around it (webbing or rope), at least at luff and leech.

    Last modified: 20 Jun 2013 07:38 | Anonymous member (Administrator)
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