Flat Sails are Still Okay

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  • 23 May 2011 08:11
    Reply # 598776 on 594527
    I do not know what it is that makes people think that cambered rigs need extra lines that were not present in "flat" sails. Nor do I know why so many people think that traditional junk sail are flat. If you look at photos of junks, those sails are mostly anything but flat. The shape maybe there by happy accident but it is there. Even the sails belonging to my good friend and flat earther Kurt Jon Ulmer (sorry I mean flat sailor) show shape in them. A fact that he probably would rather not have pointed out. Sorry Kurt :-) but tis true

    The extra line that some are making a fuss about is what is called in the west a Hong Kong parrel. Hasler mentions them in PJR (page 47 in the second Ed.) but he did not know what they were for. An understandable mistake since he also thought that junk sails are flat and since he used modern sail cloth which has tremendous diagonal stiffness he would never have see any reason for them.

    Hong Kong parrels are used when the cloth does not have enough diagonal stiffness to keep intact the parallelogram that makes up the shape of each panel. When the cloth lacks diagonal stiffness, you get diagonal creases in each panel that is complaining. The Hong Kong parrel is then rigged diagonally from the top batten to the lower one. The angle should be 45 deg or more, generally the more acute the angle (within reason) the better as less acute angles have more of a tendency to pull the battens together. The parrel is normally rigged in the luff area but I can see no reason why they could not be rigged in the leach area where they would have less effect on the shape of the sail.

    The parrels do appear in so called flat sails for the above reasons. If you look at the photos of Donald Riddlers Eric the Red (flat sails) you will see Hong Kong parrels. Donald needed them because his sails were made from cotton bed sheets and so he had many of the issues that traditional junks had to deal with. They also appear in many photos of traditional junks (that supposedly have flat sails).

    In the west, our cloth is of better quality that most junkmen could afford so as long as we persisted in making flat sails, we never saw the need for the "extra line". However once we put camber into our sails, you very quickly see the need for Hong Kong parrels. The parrels do not mean that the sail is weaker, it just means that the sail does not have diagonal stiffness. A natural consequence of giving the panels shape.

    A well made junk sail whether cambered or not is tremendously strong by virtue of the batten structure and the manner by which the loads are transferred from the sail to the hull. I do not see that camber in any way weakens the sail but it does introduce a little more complexity to the construction of the sail and in the setting up. Once the sail is set up, there is no operational difference between a flat sail and a shaped one. Except that you will sail rather more efficiently to the windward if your sail has some shape. This is not to run down flat sails, everything in boats is a compromise. You must just make the one that suits your temperament and type of sailing. One is not better than the other, just different.
  • 23 May 2011 02:36
    Reply # 598636 on 594527
    I've been thinking about Kurt's points vis a vis my own sail.  I now have it set up with only 2 Hong Kong parrels; the running luff parrel sorts out the other creases.  Thus, in essence, the sail is supported in the same way as a flat sail, with the exception of the two panels where I have Hong Kong parrels.  Or at least that's how it looks to me.

  • 22 May 2011 11:28
    Reply # 597914 on 594527
    G'Night

    If the old Chinese junk sails held together even when their weak-to-begin-with panels were partly shredded to bits, the perimeter ropes must have been good enough. And if they developed camber naturally, their fabric must have been baggy. So the idea of coming 'round full circle to old ways, is fitting. 

    Loosening up the fabric even more for camber, and taking strain on some new little bits of cord, we're still a long way from the concentration of stress in genoa clews and chain plates. So all our sails will probably survive.

    Flat-cut sails aren't quite the best we can do, but they're robust and simple, and not even so flat after all.

    Cheers,
    Kurt
  • 21 May 2011 14:11
    Reply # 596933 on 596844
    Deleted user
    Gary King wrote:
    This kind of discussion reminds me of  when windsurfing was in it infancy in the early 80's. Someone discovered a way to have the battens flip to the outer edge of the mast on each tack and performance improved drastically. Rotating asymmetric foils, or RAF sails they were called. Despite this some old hands preferred the old non rotating sails, easier to feather and spill wind, easier to control. But RAF sails pulled like a freight train, they were fabulous, were a revolution in the sport and most surfers changed over. 

    At the time it was acknowledge that the idea wasn't new. It was copied from hang gliders, and I presume camber in junk sails isn't new either, but maybe a fix for the 'modern western' junk, basically to catch up with ancient Chinese design, which by the look of the old pictures, had camber.

    I have long suspected that the fabric of the traditional junk in China would not hold the rigidly flat shape of modern low-stretch fabrics and therefore automatically took on a cambered form. So I agree that we are likely going the long way 'round to get back to where the Chinese were centuries ago.
  • 21 May 2011 09:29
    Reply # 596844 on 594527
    Deleted user
    This kind of discussion reminds me of  when windsurfing was in it infancy in the early 80's. Someone discovered a way to have the battens flip to the outer edge of the mast on each tack and performance improved drastically. Rotating asymmetric foils, or RAF sails they were called. Despite this some old hands preferred the old non rotating sails, easier to feather and spill wind, easier to control. But RAF sails pulled like a freight train, they were fabulous, were a revolution in the sport and most surfers changed over. 

    At the time it was acknowledge that the idea wasn't new. It was copied from hang gliders, and I presume camber in junk sails isn't new either, but maybe a fix for the 'modern western' junk, basically to catch up with ancient Chinese design, which by the look of the old pictures, had camber.
  • 21 May 2011 02:58
    Reply # 596690 on 594527
    I suspect Kurt may be right and I feel a bit uneasy about having abandoned the simplicity and virtues of the flat sail for windward performance on a boat that doesn't do it well except in flat water.  My sailmaker now has the sail sewn together - it just needs batten pockets and reinforcements.  He says it is unlike anything he has ever made before and looks like seven conventional cambered sails sewn together.  And my sail only has 4% camber.  Anyway I'll soon find out.  Hopefully the running luff parrels, Hong Kong parrels (if I use them) and alloy battens will be strong enough to compensate for the loss of diagonal stiffness in the panels.
    Last modified: 21 May 2011 02:58 | Anonymous member
  • 21 May 2011 02:29
    Reply # 596660 on 594527
    A shrewd and pertinent comment.  I guess only time will tell, but it's something worth considering.  At least one can always take the camber out of an existing sail if it does seem to be an issue.
  • 18 May 2011 21:45
    Message # 594527
    G'Day

    A point for flat sails.

    One of the benefits of junk rigs is the distribution of all the strain of wind, motion and manoeuvres to many component parts - parrels, sheets, battens, yard, mast and fabric.

    If we make the fabric baggy, the routine diagonal strain it would have taken has to be concentrated in a Hong Kong parrel or luff parrel. That's visually obvious, and when those parrels are set up all seems well to the eye. 

    But sudden loads from gybing, gusts, etc. become concentrated in the luff and leech and batten-ends, as well as the new HK parrel attachments, because there's no longer a fabric membrane ready to distribute the strain.

    I know the scantlings of some cambered sails take this into account, with wide tabling and larger thicker corner reinforcements and in some cases perimeter boltrope or webbing. If somebody built baggy sails of Odyssey or some such light fabric, (or worse, of stiffer Dacron) with the light edges and corners that flat sails circumnavigate the world with, that junk rig would have lost part of its security - distributed strain - for windward gain. 

    It's Tristram E that makes me think of this now. She has old flat sails that I'm confident would cross the Pacific. Take a roll of duct tape. If they were old and cambered, even if well-reinforced originally, I'd be more suspicious. And need more than duct tape to make repairs.

    I have huge respect for the innovators, reinventors, perfectors of the junk rig. But even more for the essence of the rig itself.

    Cheers,
    Kurt
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