Galion 22 conversion

  • 27 Aug 2019 00:07
    Reply # 7850632 on 5070195
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    If the problem is weather helm, raking the mast aft would make it worse, if anything you should rake it forward.

    But I don't think that will help either. I think you are probably right in suspecting imbalance of the hull when it is heeled - not at all an uncommon thing. Many hull types are renowned for it. The only immediate solution to that is to not press the boat into excessive heeling - that is: reduce sail.

    I had the same "problem" with my Pelorus. Pushed hard she would develop excessive weather helm. I could reduce sail easily by roller-reefing the headsail - the opposite of what "centre-of-effort" theory would suggest - and guess what, the weather helm went away. Why? Because she was heeling less. Another problem with the Pelorus, I suspect, was poorly cut sails, with "hooking" in the leech - you could look at that, but if the problem only arises when the boat is pushed too much into heeling, then it suggests it is inherently part of the hull shape.

    I dare say Arne is correct in suggesting a larger rudder, though introducing larger rudder forces into the equation means introducing more drag too, I would have thought. But you could think about that, because a larger rudder, in a way, does alter the underwater hull profile and shift its geometric centre of area aft (like adding an aft centreboard). I dare say Arne has already explained it better.

    (I just saw David W's post - he explains it I think, although I question the analogy with ancient junks - they had hull shapes different from yours). I still think you are over-canvassed. If reefing down leaves you without enough drive, maybe you need a more efficient sail - maybe give David T's sail a try?


    Anyway, don't try to solve it by raking the mast aft, in my humble opinion that would make things worse, if anything.

    PS if it were a dinghy you could reduce weather helm by shifting your weight aft. So your idea was on another possible right track, but not by tilting the mast back. It may be that because of the weight of the rig being so far forward, your boat is trimmed down a bit by the bow. It wouldn't hurt to try sitting right aft and even shifting a passenger or anything else movable, a little further aft when you are having the problem. It wouldn't cost anything to try that theory. Don't give up - it looks like a neat little boat that should sail really well. I still think it is a matter of getting something to work efficiently within the sail area limits of the boat. Plenty of boats sail better upright, they don't all like to be "sailed on their ear".

    Excess weather helm, in this case purely from heeling too much.

    Last modified: 27 Aug 2019 02:22 | Anonymous member (Administrator)
  • 26 Aug 2019 23:14
    Reply # 7850559 on 5070195

    Hi Jami,

    I have been following your thread for some time and have studied  the problems you are having. My feeling is that the boat needs a larger transom hung rudder. This will provide additional lateral resistance further aft which should mitigate the weather helm. This is how they did it on traditional junks and it works. Secondly it has been my experience that it is better to sail junks fast and free, they do not like being sailed too close to the wind. In my experience you get there just as quickly and a lot more comfortably. OK you put in a few more tacks, but you sail faster and go over the waves, not through them. This means the boat struggles less and is much more responsive and comfortable as well as drier. This is particularly true of narrow bow boats with wide sterns and flat bottoms, ( just like Gypsy Rose, the one I have now).

    All the best, David.

  • 26 Aug 2019 14:20
    Reply # 7849359 on 5070195

    And another un-scientific thought:

    Let's say the root cause of my boat's problems is the hull shape, especially the narrow and not-so-buoyant bow. This is why the excess weather helm turns into a problem only when heeling too much (which isn't that much). If this is true, the main cause is not sail balance.

    What if I try to put some aft mast rake? This would take the mast weight and maybe some pull on the boat more to the aft and hep the bow from diving. Or would it?

    And a more radical idea: moving the mast aft, 50-100 cm and using 20-25% sail balance.

    Am I just trying to fix something that can't be fixed?



    Last modified: 26 Aug 2019 14:20 | Anonymous member
  • 21 Aug 2019 19:16
    Reply # 7842222 on 5070195

    A new thought: cutting the top three panels sequentially shorter (until the top edge of the top panel is 2500-3000mm) and adding more camber in the right spots Roger Taylor -style, that is making camber with hinges of different length.

    And maybe the top three panels would in this case be panels 2-4 of the original, with number 1 (with the high-peaking yard) taken off.

    Result: more drive with less sail area, when reefed to 2-3 panels. Right?

    Last modified: 21 Aug 2019 21:23 | Anonymous member
  • 21 Aug 2019 16:18
    Reply # 7841640 on 5070195

    On reflection, the sail would need to be bundled with the hinged battens and yard, and transport to Finland might be difficult. It seems to make more sense for me to sell to someone in the UK who can come to inspect it to see what they're taking on, then put onto a roofrack to transport home. 

  • 21 Aug 2019 09:53
    Reply # 7841218 on 5070195

    I have to admit, that builiding a short-chord wingsail with the (possible) help of your experiences now is a tempting option.

    Also, please inform me about the price of your Weaverbird sail, just in case.

    Edit: Oh, option 5) adding 2-3 feet of length to the hull, and making the longer stern also narrower. This is no real-life option, though :)

    Last modified: 21 Aug 2019 10:51 | Anonymous member
  • 21 Aug 2019 09:36
    Reply # 7840217 on 7839211
    Jami wrote:

    I just can't get away the feeling that I need more drive with a smaller sail area, especially at the reefed end, to control the heeling (and the hull issue).

    Yes, indeed you do. I like to think of this in automotive terms. Before WW2, there were huge sports cars with engine cylinders the size of buckets. Nowadays, there are sports cars with highly developed engines a fraction of the size that could easily out-pace them. Now, substitute an oversized cambered panel sail for the first example, and my current wingsail for the second...
  • 21 Aug 2019 09:30
    Reply # 7840216 on 7839211
    Jami wrote:

    How come the jib option is not favoured? Is it just for the sake of simplicity or something else?

    A headsail has to be set on a forestay that is standing reasonably straight, or it is worse than no headsail at all. That implies a backstay, or at least a pair of cap shrouds that are angled well aft. That implies that a junk sail is not the right thing to hang on the mast, you would be better off using a pointy-topped bermudan mainsail.

    Now I'll just wait for all the Gazelle owners to tell me I'm wrong!

    Last modified: 21 Aug 2019 09:37 | Anonymous member
  • 21 Aug 2019 09:08
    Reply # 7839211 on 5070195

    How come the jib option is not favoured? Is it just for the sake of simplicity or something else?

    I just can't get away the feeling that I need more drive with a smaller sail area, especially at the reefed end, to control the heeling (and the hull issue).

    Last modified: 21 Aug 2019 09:26 | Anonymous member
  • 21 Aug 2019 06:14
    Reply # 7839069 on 5070195

    Just for curiosity’s sake: the option 4) includes an Albin Vega or a Storfidra, using Galion’s 7 panel sail plus sewing one more panel for it (although I doubt if a Vega would need it). This would make an easy conversion as far as the sail goes.

    The mast could also be used, if making a 3-part "telescopic" mast by adding length with a larger dia tube to the lower end.

    Last modified: 21 Aug 2019 06:44 | Anonymous member
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