Split-Rig Jiblets... Sheeting Angle and Designed Slot Width.

  • 28 Dec 2016 18:34
    Reply # 4480229 on 4478828
    Deleted user
    Slieve McGalliard wrote:

    The split width. This is a tricky one as it seems to depend on a number of things. I've never been fully convinced by the many theories I've read about 'Slot Effect', and anyway as there would be no overlap I doubt if there would be much effect. I was more worried about letting the air through the 'gap' and not blocking it. With a Bermudan rig the mast is on the rig centre line but with the straight junk battens the mast is off set to one side and therefore blocking the air on one tack. To help I put the jib on the mast side of the battens but even so the diameter of the mast seemed to dictate the split width. The answer to me is it is a guess and a compromise. Mast drag is enormous so the thinner the mast the better as far as I'm concerned. On my smaller model yacht the jib just about touches the mast face so the split is virtually zero, but then the mast is a 3mm carbon tube. Poppy's mast was 6”/15cm at the lower section, so after trying a paper panel I tried to set the gap to allow the air to flow past the mast.

    Entry and exit angles. My mention of these was to encourage readers to look critically at camber shapes. I have seen what I believe to be most inefficient cambers drawn by so called professional sailmakers and I think it would be good if sailors learned to question these experts (?). My experience in the junk rig world is that all the advances in rig development have been made by amateurs at their own expense, with the professionals trying to copy and profit from their efforts.

    I hope you realise that I do not believe I have all the answers. I have faced all the questions without anyone to help, so my answers are not necessarily right. The last thing I want to do is lead anyone down the wrong path. I do intend to tidy up my notes, and hope to start early in the new year, but we'll see.


    Thanks, Slieve.

    I appreciate both the detailed information and the caveats you put around the general principals you worked with to invent this thing.  Yup.  I get that you aren't laying out gospel, and it's good to know where you feel confident, where you took a shaky guess, and where you just made it up because a decision was required. Your answers go a long way toward explaining the compromises and logic behind the decisions we're making as we develop out the rig.  I think that I've read everything you've written on it, but bits and pieces have slid off until they were relevant to the moment of my own decisions.  With luck, you'll no longer have to noodle this stuff out alone in your monastic cell.

    It's helpful to me to think of the rig as not jibs & mains, but a single sail unfortunately interrupted around 1/3rd aft by an inconvenient truth of a mast.  I can envision that after a few years sailing, I may do exactly as David mentioned and start messing with ways to minimize the air slipping into turbulent mast interaction.  But really, I'll  probably get very lazy and just sail the thing.

    Regarding the jib sheeting angle and angle of entry:

    For windward work, wouldn't we want a sheeting angle of zero?  My (limited) understanding is that a normal headsail's sheeting angle is another inconvient truth from having no boom at the foot and a trade off with sail twist.  But we don't have that problem (as much).  So instead, every degree we give up in sheeting angle takes away one degree from our pointing or our potential angle of entry and the resulting option to design in more forward camber.  What's the downside of zero sheeting angle?  

  • 28 Dec 2016 10:06
    Reply # 4479357 on 4466667

    I'm afraid my answer, David, is the usual one, try it and see if there is a gain. The easier answer is to KISS. As I'm sure you are aware, the conception of the split rig involved a lot of soul searching, but I'm glad I did it and feel it was worth the effort. Too many projects fall by the way-side because they get too complicated and look for perfection, and I had enough problems to start with. Perhaps someone in the future will try to improve the breed, and I'm sure there is room for improvement, but they will at least have a platform to work from which I didn't have.

    Cheers, Slieve.

    Last modified: 28 Dec 2016 10:07 | Anonymous member
  • 28 Dec 2016 09:14
    Reply # 4479324 on 4478828
    Slieve McGalliard wrote:

    Mast drag. This is a major drag (not a pun, but a fact), but the only way to reduce it is to streamline it but the streamlining would have to rotate with the wind direction. The only way I know to achieve this is to bury it within a thick wing sail, and I think it is better to accept the problem and build the simplest rig which is easily built and repaired yet give good performance. Is the extra efficiency worth the extra work and worry? I doubt it for a cruising boat. KISS.

    Many a time and oft, I've wondered whether each of the split rig's main panels could have a section of sleeve luff (slieve luff??) over the middle portion of its height, with a flap of cloth coming around the mast and zipped or Velcroed back to the main panel. Of course, with the batten to one side of the mast, symmetry is out of the question, but perhaps some fairing-in of the mast is possible?
  • 27 Dec 2016 23:54
    Reply # 4478828 on 4466667

    Gentlemen, you are asking a lot of very interesting and important questions. To understand the answers it may be worth thinking about the background of the Split Junk rig.

    In my efforts to find a solution to what I saw as the weakness of the junk rig (lack of acceptable windward performance) I pictured a high balance, well cambered rig, and having high hopes in my ability to get something out of it I then started to build it. I was faced with every question you have asked so I read widely on the subject and threw in my lifetime's experience of practical rather than theoretical aerodynamics and put answers to the question to produce the Poppy rig.

    I was pleased to find that it came up to expectation, and now some ten years later and with more experience I am still looking for the best answers to these questions. Who says my answers were or are the best ones to give the best possible performance? These are the problems faced by everyone who sets out to devise something that hasn't been done before. Who had ever heard of a split junk rig? Not me.

    Trying to take the question one by one, -

    Balance. I wanted as much of the sail clear of the mast in undisturbed air so I wanted the maximum balance that would be stable, but had no guide as to what that would be. I knew that a NACA 00 series foil balanced at just under 25%, but I guessed that I could go beyond that with a soft sail. It was only after I had sailed Poppy that I met Roger Stollery who was a leading light in the model sailing scene and who had discovered that 33% of the rig area could be in front of the mast and still be stable. Roger's balanced model rig ended up being copied to make the Aero Rig, which performed well, but had some practical handling problems.

    Yard angle. The high balance encouraged low yard angle, but as this also was in line with my thinking on the sail shape at the head to reduce tip losses I was happy to go along with it.

    Luff shape. Every time I look at a junk rig with a cured leech shape and a straight luff I cringe as I realise that the rig must have some high stress areas as the forward thrust of the battens at the leech must be balanced by the aft thrust of the luff. Rather than calculate the forces and sail shape I simply made a couple of string outline models which was a great learning exercise for me, and gave me easy answers. I now reckon I could calculate them easily, but that goes with experience.

    Main panel camber. That was an easy one, as I reckoned that the main panels were there to deflect the air over the jibs, and at one stage I even thought of using flat panels, but in the end it seemed an interesting exercise to build a round and broadseam set of panels as a self education tool. I'm glad I did. I can't remember what camber I've used in each rig, but must have the numbers somewhere, and they've probably been published somewhere.

    The split width. This is a tricky one as it seems to depend on a number of things. I've never been fully convinced by the many theories I've read about 'Slot Effect', and anyway as there would be no overlap I doubt if there would be much effect. I was more worried about letting the air through the 'gap' and not blocking it. With a Bermudan rig the mast is on the rig centre line but with the straight junk battens the mast is off set to one side and therefore blocking the air on one tack. To help I put the jib on the mast side of the battens but even so the diameter of the mast seemed to dictate the split width. The answer to me is it is a guess and a compromise. Mast drag is enormous so the thinner the mast the better as far as I'm concerned. On my smaller model yacht the jib just about touches the mast face so the split is virtually zero, but then the mast is a 3mm carbon tube. Poppy's mast was 6”/15cm at the lower section, so after trying a paper panel I tried to set the gap to allow the air to flow past the mast.

    Jiblet patterns. Knowing what I thought I wanted to make, I sat and looked at a large roll of 200g/sq.m Terylene sailcloth and realised that I wanted to make a complicated three dimensional shape out of two dimensional sections and had nowhere to go for guidance. It made me focus my thoughts. To break the problem down I named the various parameters something in line with Bermudan thinking and was able to produce shapes which concentrated the broadseams at the luff corners (effectively the 'tack seam' in conventional sailmaking terms). This was further developed into the angled shelf foot idea, and suddenly everything fell into a practical way to go. But now I had invented new terms such as 'sheeting angle' and 'camber' which didn't really have a normal meaning. I suppose sheeting angle could be compared to the angle between the tack to jib fairlead line and boat centre line, though I doubt if they really are the same. In the vertical plane the actual leech will be similar to the arc of a circle as the tension along the leech will not produce any corners, so it is difficult to define a luff to leech line angle with the batten line. This is why we have been experimenting with little sheetlets (more complication which may not be really necessary??). Camber is easier as without it the jibs would be slices of a cone and produce little drive. The big question was how to balance these figures. So far I've drawn combinations of shapes and used the mark one eyeball to make the selection. I have found that camber and sheeting angle seem to work in harmony to give a pleasing shape, which does not have any inward curve of the leech (as flaps cause drag).The camber and angle numbers have increase since Poppy's rig with Amiina's new rig being the highest yet. The problem it to see how far we should go. I have material to make at least another set of jibs to experiment with, so who knows what will happen? There is no reason to believe I have the right answers to these problems, though I've been happy with the results achieve so far. There is plenty of room for further development.

    Additional slots. I wanted a good cambered shape over the first third of the chord as all my experience suggests that is where the real work is done. Any further complication would be just complication in my eyes. Multi slotted rigs have been built and produced high lift, but also high drag and overall a low L/D ratio. KISS.

    Mast drag. This is a major drag (not a pun, but a fact), but the only way to reduce it is to streamline it but the streamlining would have to rotate with the wind direction. The only way I know to achieve this is to bury it within a thick wing sail, and I think it is better to accept the problem and build the simplest rig which is easily built and repaired yet give good performance. Is the extra efficiency worth the extra work and worry? I doubt it for a cruising boat. KISS.

    Entry and exit angles. My mention of these was to encourage readers to look critically at camber shapes. I have seen what I believe to be most inefficient cambers drawn by so called professional sailmakers and I think it would be good if sailors learned to question these experts (?). My experience in the junk rig world is that all the advances in rig development have been made by amateurs at their own expense, with the professionals trying to copy and profit from their efforts.

    I hope you realise that I do not believe I have all the answers. I have faced all the questions without anyone to help, so my answers are not necessarily right. The last thing I want to do is lead anyone down the wrong path. I do intend to tidy up my notes, and hope to start early in the new year, but we'll see.

    No doubt the comments above will raise more questions, but that is the name of the game.

    Meanwhile I hope the New Year brings all the good things we wish for.

    Cheers, Slieve


    Last modified: 28 Dec 2016 09:14 | Anonymous member
  • 23 Dec 2016 13:51
    Reply # 4473844 on 4466667
    Deleted user

    That's pretty much what I was thinking, too, Garth.  I'll disregard slot effects and instead focus on the split as method to bridge forward and aft ends of the a sail across the turbulent/dragging mast when the mast is to leeward.  Maybe  there's a useful slot effect with the mast to windward. Maybe.

    So given that, I'm thinking that I want the space between the leech of the jibs and the luff of the mains to be a tiny bit larger than 1/2 the mast diameter at the bottom of the lowest panel.  The main luff will be at the mast centerline, and the lib leeches just nearly touching the mast.

    Last modified: 23 Dec 2016 13:52 | Deleted user
  • 22 Dec 2016 23:41
    Reply # 4473045 on 4466667

    in general multi slot airfoils can produce high lift but at the expense of high drag.  Thus they are typically used for landing aircraft where slowing down while maintaining lift is a good thing.

    On a sail boat they will work well on a reach but not so much going to weather.

    The circular mast by itself is quite draggy.  The presence of the sail behind is cleans up the wake and turns the mast into a nice round leading edge.  It is not optimal however as there will be a large separation bubble to leward of the mast which tends to reduce the effectiveness of the sail.  Sail camber reduces this effect.  The jiblets also help to keep the flow attached as it rounds the mast.  This also reduces the separation bubble and consequently the drag.  For best results you want some overlap of the jib with the mast.  This is impossible with a self tacking jiblet but the minimal gap will be the best.

    I am afraid the extra slot aft of the mast will negate the positive effect of the jiblets.

  • 21 Dec 2016 13:42
    Reply # 4470141 on 4466667
    Deleted user

    There may be something to the multiple slot idea. 

    But looking at both nature and high performance, non-pointy topped racers, you don't see the multiple slot, or even single slots for that matter, show up much.  My guess is that drag, progressively tighter angles of attack, and structural complications limit progress along that route.  It would be worth proving it out, though, for somebody with a hankerin'.

    I'm waiting for Slieve to weigh in on the sheeting angle + camber and the slot width versus mast width. Or maybe Ed?

  • 20 Dec 2016 14:25
    Reply # 4468476 on 4466667

    Yes, I forgot to mention in my post that obviously the bad effect of the area forward of the mast in a standard lug junk rig applied only to port tack, using the junk rig convention of battens to port of the mast, as pointed out by Scott.  On starboard tack, the mast obviously stands proud of the sail in the windward airflow and the slot isn't needed to counteract the effect of the mast.

    Chris, that natty little illustration of yours is most impressive.  My thought though, on the slot aft of the mast was, directly aft of the mast, and in front of a slightly shortened main panel in additon to Slieve's slot directly forward of the mast, rather than your idea of a slot halfway or so, back along the main panel.   

    My reasoning is that as controlling the camber on the jib panel right to the front of the luff  gains a lot of power from the lack of interference of a mast, might not a similar slot directly aft of the mast do something similar. 

    As we are building camber into the main panel anyway and Slieve's 45 degree shelf foot method will work equally well at bringing the camber right to the luff of the main panel, could a slot just aft of the mast help to energise or enhance, along with the flow from the windward side of the jib panel, the flow along the leeward side of the main panel.  

    My other thought, though, was that maybe the airflow flowing through a slot between the windward side of the mast and the luff of the ever so slightly shortened main panel would simply push the jib panel windward airflow away from the leeward side of the main panel and dis-improve rather than improve lift on the leeward side of the main panel.  You might have to reread this paragraph a couple of times to get what I mean.  I know I did and I wrote it. I'm sure there's a simpler way of saying it. 


    I suppose that when I eventually get around to building the full size sail, I'll have to build 2 main panels, one of which will create a slot both directly fore and aft of the mast and test it. Maybe I'll just concentrate on building the one sail first. 


    Regards, Dave 

  • 20 Dec 2016 13:40
    Reply # 4468452 on 4466667
    Deleted user

    My gut sense is that on the mast to leeward tack, there's not going to be a useful slot effect.  A mast is a huge draggy object lurking in that slot, and I find it difficult to imagine clean laminar flow in there.  I could be wrong - I'd love to get instrumentation into all these nooks and crannies.

    There's also a thread here on the JRA (Myth of the Bad Tack) on which a few cambered JR user show better performance when the mast is to leeward than to windward.  That phenomenon may indicate that the drag created when the mast in on the windward (high pressure) side is more significant than the shape disrupting leeward side.   The split rig in essence keeps the mast always on the windward side - sometimes in the slot, on one tack in the slot, in the other just aft of it. 

     

    My suspicion is that the performance enhancements Sleive reports from the split rig come from the carefully controlled jib shape and its ability to create forward lift in the first third of the combined main/jib surface, and the fact that a slot is created is not a major contributor. 

    Regarding the sheeting angle vs camber - I understand that they are two separate tweaks to the sail, but when summed, they control the max distance the jib's the max camber is from the batten.  I'm guessing there's a combined value that we don't want too low or too high.  That line of reasoning is probably less important in practice than an theory, but it might lead to a design rule-of-thumb.

  • 20 Dec 2016 10:51
    Reply # 4468289 on 4466667
    Deleted user
    David Doran wrote:

    I've wondered if also having a 2nd slot aft of the mast might allow more airflow over the leeward side of the main panel or if it would just create an aerodynamic mess by interfering with the airflow coming off the jib leech.

    David

    This was recently suggested by Pete Hill in this thread. The response from Slieve was that we'll never know til we try. However, both Slieve and David Tyler felt that while it would probably increase total lift, it would probably increase drag more.

    I have toyed with the idea of making a second set of main panels for my new rig to try the idea out, but that is for later, as in probably never. It does give me the opportunity to post another of my irritatingly natty little 3D animations, though:

    http://www.junkrigassociation.org/resources/MemberAlbums/9542258/Split%20Rig%20for%20China%20Girl/Double%20Split%20Rig.gif

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