SibLim update

  • 11 Jul 2017 22:46
    Reply # 4969113 on 4967087
    David Tyler wrote:

    Graeme and Ron,

    I tried, and failed, to persuade Annie set the tabernacle in the boat with the open side aft, and then to put the pin through the heel plug, where it can do no harm. Easy to do, and a no brainer where there is no coachroof to clear, as is the case with SibLim. And as you say, for occasional use there need be no pin. This arrangement has been used for centuries in the Yorkshire and Northumberland cobles, and would work well here, too.

    To me it wasn't a no brainer.  The SibLim mast isn't a short, stout stick like on a coble, and I'm unlikely to have half a dozen stalwart men to help me get it down. And Pete preferred the arrangement that we went for.  By having the fulcrum a little further up I think you have a little more control.  I prefer, in this instance, to go with what I know and with what I have used in the past.

    But as Graeme says, should I (or the rest of you) change my mind, I can always reverse the tabernacle!  It's not installed yet.

    Last modified: 11 Jul 2017 22:53 | Anonymous member
  • 11 Jul 2017 22:43
    Reply # 4969109 on 4967090
    David Tyler wrote:

    Annie, 

    Lots of good thought going into the heads compartment, this is looking very fine.

    Remember that the inner side of the bilgeboard case needs plenty of support at the level where the top of the board is going to rest against it. On the port side, the shelves are going to do that, so make 'em strong.

    I can't figure out where the battery is going to go now?


    Er, your drawings don't show this and I don't recall you ever mentioning it.  There is a C-head to port with an athwartships counter and your original drawings showed a heater on the other side.  The newer drawings show a C-head going right out to the bilgeboard case, with a small counter forward.  Nothing on the other side.  As it happens, I intend to put a decent counter on the starboard side and have a fore-and-aft bulkhead inboard of it.  It so happens that the counter has ended up at the same height as the stringer on which the bottom of the 'fender locker' rests.  But the shelves on the other side - which also have a fore-and-aft bulkhead inboard of them, have been fitted for heights according to what is going to be stowed on them.  I can, I suppose, remove the top one, put a small, but thicker one higher up and fillet it all in.  Perhaps you would like to tell me what you had in mind before I go ahead and fit what I've already made.

    The battery is going under the cabin sole on the starboard side.


  • 11 Jul 2017 11:10
    Reply # 4967236 on 4315719
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    The KISS tabernacle hinge.

    If the mast has to swing over the top of the tabernacle as mine will have to (because I have a cabin top/dodger in the way of the lowered mast) – and as Annie might have to do now, because the tabernacle is made – then I think the simple answer is to just put the “damn big pin” through the tabernacle instead of the mast. (Shove it through the back plank of the tabernacle as near to the back of the mast and as near to the top of the tabernacle as possible, have a couple of inches sticking out both sides and that’s it, finished. The pin is static and acts like a horizontal belaying pin – might even be useful for that. When lowering the mast just lash it to the pin with a simple square lashing (with a bit of slack so it won’t bind up when the mast swings – and maybe rig a preventer against the mast slipping down) and that gives you something like the arrangement which Ron has just explained. (Thanks Ron – nice to find someone else has done the same thing.)

    Now a step away from KISS but an improvement – make a strong neat fitting which attaches the pin to the top of the tabernacle, at the back of the mast, so the pin is mounted about a rope’s thickness higher than the sides of the tabernacle. A nice little engineering challenge for someone with metal-working tools – or better still, just take a enough off the sides of the tabernacle so they are a rope's thickness lower than the pin. The main thing is, the pin is attached to the tabernacle not the mast – and now the square lashing can be made as good and tight as possible. The pin itself is now the pivot point for the back of the mast, and the pin centre is the centre of rotation. The lashing will then rotate around the pin together with the mast, all secure and with no binding up. I think this is what I will do, and I will complicate things even a little bit further by setting the pin back a little from the mast so there is room for the pin to carry a stout rubber roller. A tight square lashing around the mast and the two ends of the pin, the mast bearing on the rubber roller – and that’s the hinge – and when the mast is down it can roll forward still being supported – the gallows at the back having a roller as well.

    The pin can stay in place all the time, not too obtrusive, and maybe handy the rest of the time if you need to belay a halyard or some other line at the mast –  or swig against it – or hang your hat on it.

    Now for the real KISS. I think David has hit the nail right on the head – with the tabernacle  open at the back, the mast can go up and down and will never slip forward or slip out of the tabernacle, and you don’t even need a pin (at least, not for the hinging function) Why didn’t I think of that? I remember in the forum when it was mooted, and thinking at the time Annie’s right, why would you pivot the mast at the heel? I have had a number of little boats with hinges at the heel of the mast and always found the system to be rubbish – so had a pretty strong prejudice, and was blinded by it. But this is different. This is a proper tabernacle we are talking about here. For me, the penny has just dropped – with a flush deck boat why would you not do what David suggests and then you don’t need a hinge or a pin or even a lashing for the raising and lowering of your mast. That’s KISS. Pity its no good for me, because I need to get the pivot point up as high as the cabin top or dodger. But Annie, just out of interest, why did you not like the idea of making the heel the pivot point for the mast, in your (SibLim’s) case?

    I shouldn’t be suggesting to someone who knows much more than me how to suck eggs, but at least I have got David on my side, so I will boldly suggest that it looks to me as though you could still change your mind if you wanted to, just by facing your tabernacle round the other way when you get around to mounting it. (Like any boat builder, you must be driven nuts sometimes by unsought bystander advice – but never mind, you are in the same league as Joshua Slocum now, and he got through it!)


    Last modified: 11 Jul 2017 22:37 | Anonymous member (Administrator)
  • 11 Jul 2017 08:07
    Reply # 4967107 on 4966751
    Graeme Kenyon wrote:

    Annie, your blog has given me hours of interesting reading, but I had forgotten about it lately. Now I find you have described the making of your tabernacle - wonderful - I have wanted for some time to come and visit you to have a look at it, but reluctant to interrupt your valuable boat-building time. Now I don't have to, its all in the blog! (By the way, your link did not work for me, but your blog site address is easy to remember.)

    There's an 'e' missing from the URL.
  • 11 Jul 2017 08:04
    Reply # 4967090 on 4315719

    Annie, 

    Lots of good thought going into the heads compartment, this is looking very fine.

    Remember that the inner side of the bilgeboard case needs plenty of support at the level where the top of the board is going to rest against it. On the port side, the shelves are going to do that, so make 'em strong.

    I can't figure out where the battery is going to go now?

  • 11 Jul 2017 07:50
    Reply # 4967087 on 4315719

    Graeme and Ron,

    I tried, and failed, to persuade Annie set the tabernacle in the boat with the open side aft, and then to put the pin through the heel plug, where it can do no harm. Easy to do, and a no brainer where there is no coachroof to clear, as is the case with SibLim. And as you say, for occasional use there need be no pin. This arrangement has been used for centuries in the Yorkshire and Northumberland cobles, and would work well here, too.

  • 11 Jul 2017 05:30
    Reply # 4967021 on 4315719
    Deleted user

    Beautiful work Annie.  Thanks for sharing. And fun read. 

    I share with the intent of supporting both your thinking and Graeme's comment. . .  My boat originally (1982) had two unstayed 28' solid wood masts stepped on deck with tabernacles, using the "bolt thru the middle" approach ...  worked great, easily pivoted straight up and down without any other support just as Graeme says ... until one of the masts broke in strong winds ... right at that bolt.  oops!  Next I attached a bolt to a wooden fixture on the backside of the mast and thru the tabernacle to make a nice hinge ... this also allowed the mast to sit flat on its base without fiddling with it. This worked well but felt a little more unwieldy so I added "stays" during raise and lower.  This version of tabernacle eventually rotted out (mast lost its balance and came down badly), so on my last incarnation of tabernacle (2012) I did very much like Graeme said and just used temporary (semi-loose) lashings around mast and tabernacle ... even more unwieldy, but worked, with what felt like fewer stress points.  And just like Graeme said, since I only used it once every other year or so, in very calm water,  it was no big deal to rig and unrig.  I added a second lashing to prevent the mast from sliding forward when part way up or down, which was an issue with my masts.  On the current incarnation that I am planning, but not yet done, I expect to use the lashing method again: quick, easy, more forgiving, doesn't interfere with normal boat usage when removed.  If I thought I was going to be going under bridges a lot I would consider using some version of the bolt-on-the-back method if I couldn't make the lashing method work quickly ... To support what you have already decided, never again would I put a bolt thru the middle. 

  • 11 Jul 2017 03:35
    Reply # 4966751 on 4315719
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    Annie, your blog has given me hours of interesting reading, but I had forgotten about it lately. Now I find you have described the making of your tabernacle - wonderful - I have wanted for some time to come and visit you to have a look at it, but reluctant to interrupt your valuable boat-building time. Now I don't have to, its all in the blog! (By the way, your link did not work for me, but your blog site address is easy to remember.)

    Much praise too, to Pete - nice job.

    I want to add an unsolicited comment - not that I have had experience with this kind of tabernacle - but as an ex-hiab truck driver, in another part if my life, I have made plenty of money on the side pulling masts out for people and decided many years ago my "ideal boat" mast would have to be self-lowering. My last boat (a stayed gaff rig) had a tabernacle of sorts, and the forces involved in raising and lowering a heavy mast were no problem at all - a 2:1 purchase on the anchor capstan winch - and a ten-minute job to rig a halyard down to it, via a strut. An easy one-person job. But the tabernacle itself was just a little deck fitting with no sides, with the pin/hinge at the foot of the mast - an over-size version of what trailer yachts have - and wouldn't do for an unstayed mast.

    My comment is this - I think we have a bit of a fixation about the pivot point - I see no need for pins or any other kind of hinge fitting with this kind of "proper" tabernacle. It is one thing if you are raising/lowering the mast every time you go sailing - or if you are going under bridges frequently etc., but if it is just going to be the odd occasion when you need to lower the mast, why have a fitting at all? I rather prefer to have the front part of the tabernacle bolted in place to make a strong four-sided box when sailing - its only a moment or two to remove a couple of stainless bolts and open it up. The mast can then fall back (under control of course) and just pivot back over the top of the tabernacle. It might be nice to have that part shaped or padded a little - and much better if the sides of the tabernacle extend up a little higher each side than the pivot point at the back. 

    (I am pondering the possibility of having a trailer-boat roller mounted there for the mast to pivot or roll back over, as next move would be to slide (or roll) the mast forward prior to making it fast in its horizontal position. The tabernacle then serves as a fore-gallows - if there is such a word. This is a slight complication as the mast then has to be restrained from rolling forward while being lowered - not necessarily a disadvantage, but that's another story and lets leave that part for later)

    Of course, it is not quite as simple as that - everything needs to be held in place while the mast is coming down, and you can't afford to let the mast fall one side or the other. I never found that to be a problem with my previous arrangement which worked while on the water - the boat just needs to be level and not allowed any roll during the process - then gravity will act the way you want it, your lowering mast has enough stability (just) and although I fussed about this and took precautions to begin with, I quickly found that in sheltered water up the creek here, the forces would stay vertical and no lateral support was ever necessary. And the pin/hinge arrangement at the foot of that mast could never have provided the slightest amount of lateral support - it all relied on the mast naturally falling through a vertical plane which it wants to do. No rocking the boat though - instability is never too far away!

    Anyway, to get back to the pin/hinge question - yes, a pin or hinge will give a little lateral support while lowering (though possibly not enough if the mast started to go over the side.) The sides of the tabernacle will give some lateral support during part of the lowering process - enough in my experience. If you are worried about lateral support and decide to take precautions then I think you would probably want to temporarily rig some kind of lateral support higher up on the mast anyway, not rely on the pin or hinge.

    I see a pin or hinge as mainly just to keep the mast close to the pivot point and stop it from falling out of the tabernacle or sliding forward during the lowering process. I can not see why a simple lashing would not do the same job. Why not just have a cleat mounted on the tabernacle, up near the top, so before opening up the front of the tabernacle you just lash the mast in place at the pivot point with enough flexibility in the lashing to allow the mast to roll back over the top of the tabernacle - but tight enough, or in conjunction with a preventer to stop the mast slipping forward as it is lowered, if slipping forward is thought to be a problem.

    (It would be best if the sides of the tabernacle extended a little bit higher each side than the pivot point at the back. But unless you have a little bit of surplus length to play with there, it looks like that might be a little bit too late in your case.)

    Most of my ideas don't quite work until the time comes to put them into practice, and then something usually needs to be changed. This might be a case in point, but I think it could be made to work and on mine I am going to try to avoid the use of any fitting bolted/welded/screwed to the mast at the pivot point, just a lashing. Maybe I will end up with a red face, but I offer this in the reasonable expectation that others will now chip in with better ideas. (I bet Arne can come up with something better!)

    Thanks for the effort you make in maintaining your blog, I can assure you it is worth it.

    PS if a pin is considered necessary, then I am sure you are right to have it at the back of the mast rather than "a damn great bolt through the middle" (as you so delicately put it in your blog.)  So, why not just lash it to the mast when needed, rather than fix it permanently. Or find some other way of clamping on a removable hinge of some kind. 

    I suppose, in the most general terms, my point is really that a hinge/pin fitting is only of use during the actual lowering process - the rest of the time it does nothing, so why have it permanently fitted? And we all know you don't want to  be drilling or welding anywhere near that point. Sorry, I can never express an idea in one sentence when fifty will do to begin with!

    Last modified: 11 Jul 2017 04:12 | Anonymous member (Administrator)
  • 10 Jul 2017 23:30
    Reply # 4963293 on 4315719

    I've been fitting out in the heads.  At the moment, it is essentially a kit of parts, because I want to paint as much a possible before the final assembly.

    I have written up progress on my blog, once more, and you can find it here.  I've had some feedback which implies that people actually prefer reading it there than on the JRA website, which is good to hear.

  • 25 Jun 2017 03:11
    Reply # 4916314 on 4315719

    Due to the fact that I'm running out of space in my albums on this website, I've decided to post my progress reports solely on my blogspot.  The latest one can be found here.   As I came to write it, I realise I've been a bit slack about taking photos recently, for which I apologise.

       " ...there is nothing - absolutely nothing - half so much worth doing as simply messing about in junk-rigged boats" 
                                                               - the Chinese Water Rat

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