Some thoughts on Fantail's next sail...

  • 08 Oct 2016 21:28
    Reply # 4297368 on 4278178
    Thanks very much Chris. And thanks also, David. Annie's s/a with tops' l is just over 600 sqft or 56 sqm. I'm thinking either the fantail or Arne's modified HM will produce just as much or more drive upwind if given the required cambered panels. It would be great to get a scaled up version, thank you! Pol.
  • 08 Oct 2016 19:14
    Reply # 4297187 on 4278178

    Pol, if you could send me the sail area you need, I can scale up the revised fantail planform that I'm working on with Bryan, and send you a pdf.

  • 08 Oct 2016 19:08
    Reply # 4297176 on 4278178
    Anonymous

    Seems to have gone AWOL. I have stored a copy here.

    Chris

  • 08 Oct 2016 17:26
    Reply # 4297072 on 4278178
    My apologies... Clearly I haven't got the method for including a quote in my reply yet. I was prompted to ask where can I find David Tyler's scalable fantail planform drawing (as I've seen mentioned somewhere here) after seeing his post below. Can anyone point me in the right direction please? Having ruled out the possibility of a split rig for our 6t, 29' centreboard gaffer, I'm now at the options for a sloop rig. Thanks to all, Pol.
  • 08 Oct 2016 17:13
    Reply # 4297065 on 4280846

    For some reason, which I have forgotten now, back in January I drew up a modified Fantail sail. It has a less aggressive yard angle, which should make it easier to set, with less loadings on the LHP and on the cloth in the throat area. It also has a straight ove sail, even though those stresses would be less than in Fantail's current sail. I'd be looking around for a polyester cloth with as little filler as possible.

  • 06 Oct 2016 21:13
    Reply # 4294230 on 4278178
    Looks good, Bryan, although there is a funny little kink at the leach in the first batten above the boom.  However, I don't know much about sail plans, I just use them.  David and Arne will be able to give far more relevant and useful comments.

    And as David said: what a contrast with Chris's amazing-looking concept!


    Last modified: 06 Oct 2016 21:14 | Anonymous member
  • 06 Oct 2016 20:03
    Reply # 4294141 on 4278178

    Bryan, please can you send me the .dxf file for your latest sail design? I may then be better able to understand the changes you've made to my revised fantail planform, and suggest improvements.

  • 06 Oct 2016 09:05
    Reply # 4293236 on 4278178

    Bryan, the link should be:

    http://www.junkrigassociation.org/Sys/PublicProfile/
    30361922/Photo/57370807/57370809/0?dh=0&cppr=0

    ie, to your public profile, not the profile that only you can see. We're all guilty of doing this from time to time - not checking that the URL contains /PublicProfile/ !!

  • 06 Oct 2016 06:30
    Reply # 4292996 on 4278178
    Deleted user
    After a lot of thought, here goes a possibility (sorry, it was drawn on a CAD program using bits of an original by David T, then converted to .pdf; the conversion isn't the best). A few comments are in order:


    • I don't know what I'm doing. This represents a synthesis of my best guess and suggestions from two Davids, Arne, Paul and Annie.
    • Because I'm lazy and tight fisted, the sail is based around Fantail's existing yard and battens.
    • I figure that the short yard/truncated top panel will work fine, with the proviso that there is no camber above the top sheeted batten. This should allow the downward component of the sheet load on that batten to be transferred to yard via the upper panels rather than the leech alone, and hopefully addresses Arne's concerns on that score.
    • The sail is fanned because it allows greater support of the upper panels than an Arne/HM shape does when the aspect ratio is of necessity so low. This may not be a problem at all, but as a novice I feel more comfortable with more batten support. Besides, and just as importantly, it wouldn't be Fantail without a fanned sail.
    • The original Fantail sail will not tolerate more than a whisker over 6 degrees of camber before developing negative stagger. This may not be a problem, as some have suggested, but I'm wary because of the steep sheeting angle that occurs of necessity in Fantail's case; also, she furls perfectly now and why risk spoiling a good thing? The rather sharp boom rise in the planform above allows for any amount of camber.
    • The leech should be less conducive to fouling sheetlets during gybes than Fantail's current sail, I hope.
    • The new shape has one less batten than the original (a good thing, I think), and is a tiny amount down on area (not so good, I think).
    • At some level of camber it seems that running lazyjacks will likely be beneficial. As I'm too lazy for that, I'll ponder how much camber can be put in before this matters.
    • The yard angle is dropped to 65 degrees to ease the throat load of the sail, which has been an issue on the current sail.
    • As the sail fans, the camber shape will follow, i.e. the point of maximum camber will be further aft on the upper batten compared to the lower in each panel in order to prevent the max camber point being angled across the 'sloping' panels.
    • I'm mindful too of Annie's comment that there's only so much one can expect in the way of performance of a small boat on a bouncy sea. I'm still pondering the question of how much camber, and I certainly don't want to lose any of Fantail's easy-going nature in some wild-eyed quest for more drive.

    Critique welcomed!
    Last modified: 06 Oct 2016 06:31 | Deleted user
  • 02 Oct 2016 20:56
    Reply # 4286530 on 4283067
    Deleted user
    David Thatcher wrote:
    Arne Kverneland wrote:

    Camber to the People!

    Annie,

    I see the point that it can be a challenge for a beamy 26-footer to beat against an awkward head sea. Still, from the numbers I read about the Raven 26, that vessel should be able to stand up to  -  and would also need  - a quite powerful rig. Since Bryan is stuck with the short mast, I suggest he gives the lower panels a serious camber of at least 8% (better 10...) in the lower half of the sail, and also some in the upper section (almost flat in the top panel).

    The powerful sail will ask for a reef earlier than before, but that is just fine. As a panel is dropped, the CP of the sail moves downwards. That means the rig can produce more drive for less heeling moment.


    Having sailed a number of Owen Wooley designed Raven yachts, including an 8 day passage from Auckland to northern Tonga in a Raven 38 I do know that the Ravens are good sailing boats and will stand up to sail area, or drive. I don't know that having too much drive in a junk rig boat is a problem because one can get rid of sail very quickly. 
    Perhaps the compromise is to put 8% in the lower 2 panels and reduce to 6% above that... 
       " ...there is nothing - absolutely nothing - half so much worth doing as simply messing about in junk-rigged boats" 
                                                               - the Chinese Water Rat

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