New sails for Tammy Norie

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  • 21 Oct 2017 00:08
    Reply # 5324277 on 5317280
    Kurt Jon Ulmer wrote:
    Slieve McGalliard wrote:

    I still don't understand why home builders and sailmakers have continued to build flat sails after you demonstrated such a simple way to get good bangs per buck.


    Hello to all,

    It's clear why people look to improve the sails recommended in Practical Junk Rig. There are a few things, (well, actually one thing) they don't 'perform' superbly at.

    I constantly admire inventiveness. The WingSails, Fantails, Split Rig, Cambered Panels, AeroJunk, etc... are impressive even without controlled trials. I think I made a couple of good tweaks myself. Good on me! (ahem...)

    But Slieve, there are reasons. Not intensely exciting, as in 'bangs per buck.' Still, I wrote about mine in JRA Newsletter 61, titled 'The Merits of Flat-Cut Junk Rig Sails.' It's also in the Technical Articles section, possibly out of place somewhat, but a great honour nonetheless. Surprised me. It doesn't even try to solve the 'one thing' mentioned above.

    I used the phrase 'Good Enough' in favour of robustness and simplicity. Little reponse to the ideas on my little flat grey placard (well, one 'Flat-Earther' joke...) Actually, maybe a couple of new sails were made flat. I don't know.

    Anyway, 'Hey Richard, Here's what you do...' (only kidding)

    Cheers, Kurt



    Hey Kurt,

    Just for the record, my first junk sail was a cambered sail made from Odyssey 111.  When it fell apart after 4 years, I was inspired by your example to build a flat-cut sail, though it too turned out to be flattish, rather than "barn-door flat".  I have three fanned panels and put 20mm of rounding along the battens in those panels.  The four lower panels are parallel, in classic HM style, and are cut flat, but they have deep hollows in the leach, which tends to flatten out the aft end of each panel, while the straight luff allows some scalloping in the forward part of each panel.  Thus the panels end up with a tiny amount of camber.  Also I have a short yard which allows the top batten (unsheeted) to fall off a little, adding camber to the top panels, which in my opinion are the powerhouse of a sail to windward.  I am delighted with the light air performance of this sail in smooth water.  In a chop, my fat hull was always somewhat sedate.  One thing I have noticed is that the boat is slower to accelerate out of each tack than it was with the cambered sail, so a short-tacking duel would put me at a disadvantage.  Nonetheless, I love the robust simplicity of my sail, the way it stacks perfectly even at 0300hrs on a dark, squally night.  It really is a "fully automatic" sail, to quote Blondie Hasler.

    I am a bit impatient with those who sneer at flat-cut sails without qualifying their argument.  I understand that if you mostly sail around enclosed waters, or race, you might become obsessed with windward performance, but the sort of cruising that interests me entails avoiding windward work mostly.  Also, flat-cut sails are very simple and robust, and I consider it beyond doubt that they spread the loads more evenly throughout the sail.  For offshore cruising, these qualities mean more than windward efficiency.  Anyway, one of the joys of cruising, for me, is to abandon time constraints.  Once I stop wondering when I am going to get there, I slip into a delightful harmony with life, colours become more vibrant, all my senses come alive.   I am currently researching an article about Kris Larsen on Kehaar.  Kris has sailed more than 70,000 miles in the last 30 years with flat-cut sails made from all sorts of throw-away materials, without an engine, and demonstrates beyond doubt that the concept of "good enough" works very well for voyaging yachts with junk sails.

    PS:  I might add that cruising without  a primary focus on windward performance need not be limited to ocean voyaging.  My most delightful sailing really is just mooching around in sheltered waters, not caring how long it takes to get somewhere, knowing I can just drop the anchor whenever I feel like it in a nearby anchorage.  I'm also interested in the work of those developing cambered junk rigs and watch their work closely.  My only criticism is that cambered rigs, for all their potential advantages, do not render flat-cut junk sails obsolete.
    Last modified: 21 Oct 2017 10:30 | Anonymous member
  • 20 Oct 2017 22:18
    Reply # 5324184 on 3075356

    Gentlemen,

    Thus my use of the term 'Flat-Cut' ...

    It's all good.


  • 19 Oct 2017 01:04
    Reply # 5321443 on 5319869
    Arne Kverneland wrote:

    Kurt

    When looking at your sails in your album, it appears to me that the panels bulge to produce quite a bit camber, in particular in the shown top panel. They certainly have more shape than the first flat sail of my Malena had, back in 1990. Have you fitted your sails with any kind of stiff boltrope or something? The combination of stiff boltropes and a bit stretch in the cloth could easily give that little bit of camber.  My hunch is that a sail with just a bit camber performs better than a barn-door-flat sail.

    Sooo  -  I am not at all sure that you are qualified  to be member og The Flat Earth Society .  

    Arne

    See what I mean?


    Yes, I've on more than one occasion pointed out to Kurt that his "flat" sails are anything but flat. He may have cut them flat but the cloth he used (Top Gun) stretches enough to give them some shape. The difference is he has no say in where and how the shaping occurs. I prefer to have more control and insert my own shaping.
  • 18 Oct 2017 10:48
    Reply # 5319869 on 3075356
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    Kurt

    When looking at your sails in your album, it appears to me that the panels bulge to produce quite a bit camber, in particular in the shown top panel. They certainly have more shape than the first flat sail of my Malena had, back in 1990. Have you fitted your sails with any kind of stiff boltrope or something? The combination of stiff boltropes and a bit stretch in the cloth could easily give that little bit of camber.  My hunch is that a sail with just a bit camber performs better than a barn-door-flat sail.

    Sooo  -  I am not at all sure that you are qualified  to be member of The Flat Earth Society .  

    Arne

    See what I mean?

    Last modified: 19 Oct 2017 09:11 | Anonymous member (Administrator)
  • 16 Oct 2017 21:04
    Reply # 5317280 on 5316711
    Slieve McGalliard wrote:

    I still don't understand why home builders and sailmakers have continued to build flat sails after you demonstrated such a simple way to get good bangs per buck.


    Hello to all,

    It's clear why people look to improve the sails recommended in Practical Junk Rig. There are a few things, (well, actually one thing) they don't 'perform' superbly at.

    I constantly admire inventiveness. The WingSails, Fantails, Split Rig, Cambered Panels, AeroJunk, etc... are impressive even without controlled trials. I think I made a couple of good tweaks myself. Good on me! (ahem...)

    But Slieve, there are reasons. Not intensely exciting, as in 'bangs per buck.' Still, I wrote about mine in JRA Newsletter 61, titled 'The Merits of Flat-Cut Junk Rig Sails.' It's also in the Technical Articles section, possibly out of place somewhat, but a great honour nonetheless. Surprised me. It doesn't even try to solve the 'one thing' mentioned above.

    I used the phrase 'Good Enough' in favour of robustness and simplicity. Little reponse to the ideas on my little flat grey placard (well, one 'Flat-Earther' joke...) Actually, maybe a couple of new sails were made flat. I don't know.

    Anyway, 'Hey Richard, Here's what you do...' (only kidding)

    Cheers, Kurt


    Last modified: 16 Oct 2017 21:05 | Anonymous member
  • 16 Oct 2017 15:53
    Reply # 5316711 on 3075356

    You're not quite right there, Arne.

    If the WWW had been then I for one would have been 100% in favour of you trying the barrel cut, as at that time I didn't understand why it wasn't being used. I would however, have been worried about the little wrinkles along the battens, largely as I was used to stiff polyester sail material and not the soft nylon you used.

    I still don't understand why home builders and sailmakers have continued to build flat sails after you demonstrated such a simple way to get good bangs per buck.

    I've made a simple panel out of newspaper and Sellotape with the round running down the middle seam of a panel and as expected, it was horrible. The round and broadseam method I used was simply an attempt to use sailmaker's techniques to achieve a more controlled camber, and the angled shelf-foot was looking for another way to achieve the same end. If anyone is happy with the PJR shaped rig then your 'Barrel and B' has to be the minimum way to go. Personally I prefer the higher balance and better forward camber of the split rig, and what I see as the advantages they give, but that's just me.

    It may be possible to re-use the flat sail material to build a 'Barrel and B' type sail, but you are right in saying it would be quicker and easier to start from scratch.

    Cheers, Slieve.


    Last modified: 16 Oct 2017 16:56 | Anonymous member
  • 16 Oct 2017 13:04
    Reply # 5316454 on 3075356
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    The proof of the pudding...

    I am not claiming that inserting lenses in the middle of each panel will produce an efficient camber. I just suggest that someone try it on a test panel. The chances that it will work may well be fifty-fifty. The reason why I still suggest trying it is that in case it turns out good, this would be the only modification, which is quick enough to implement on existing flat sails. Any other suggested method I have seen will be so much work to do that it  is quicker to make a new sail, at least if the barrel cut plus Amateur Method B is used.

    I wonder what would have happened if the www. had been up and running in 1993. Then I would most probably have presented the JRA forum with the barrel cut idea. I would then be met with half a dozen good reasons why it would not work. Luckily, the www was not there, so I told nobody about it until I could present photos of  my Malena under sail  -  now really sailing  -  not just drifting about, looking picturesque (NL 30).

    Arne

     


    Last modified: 16 Oct 2017 13:18 | Anonymous member (Administrator)
  • 16 Oct 2017 10:07
    Reply # 5316327 on 3075356

    I suspect modifying a flat sail to a usefully cambered sail would not be all that easy.

    Firstly, the distance from luff to leech round the camber will be greater than the length along the battens. The difference is not great, being around 30mm on Amiina's small sail, but without this extra length the tight luff and leech will pull the camber out of the sail and try to make it flat, just as a few millimetres of leech hollow flattens the leech area of a sail. The alternative to adding material to the length is to shorten the length along the battens with small wrinkles as in Arne's method of making camber, which may not be practical with all sails.

    Secondly, we have to think of the shape we are trying to achieve. Adding material to the top and bottom of a panel, as in the barrel cut means that the vertical cross section of the panel can have camber over most of the height of the panel. If the extra material is only added to the centreline then the vertical cross section is more likely to have a hump in the middle and not give decent camber over whole height of the panel. I suspect that to get an effective camber the material has to be added near the battens, and explains why broadseam is added close to the edges rather than in the middle of a sail. The dimensions and positioning of the broadseam dictate the positioning of the surplus material, which is critical in achieving the desired camber shape.

    Simply shortening the luff and leech with darts will only produce camber if the length along the battens is also shortened, but that will probably result in a rather square shaped camber with a sharp rise at the luff, fairly flat along the length of the panel and a cup at the leech. Somehow the tucks (darts) would have to be broadseamed along the length of the panel to shape the camber efficiently. This would be similar to sewing an angled shelf-foot.

    The idea of converting flat rigs to cambered panels has received much thought over the years, but not surprisingly no-one seems to have found an easy way to achieve a simple and satisfactory result.

    Probably the only practical way to use the material would be to slice the sail along the batten lines and add shortened lens pieces to make a flat shelf-foot sail. This amounts to a virtually a full rebuild. This raises the question as to whether the effort would be better used in building a new sail from scratch, either Arne's barrel, or angled shelf-foot or round and broadseam.

    Cheers, Slieve.


  • 16 Oct 2017 00:28
    Reply # 5315846 on 5315753
    Arne Kverneland wrote:

    Stuart,

    I have been thinking along similar lines. It would be interesting to simply rip a panel from luff to leech mid between the battens and then insert a lens-shaped piece of cloth there. If you look up JRA Newsletter 30, you can see how I made a test panel before daring to cut a whole sail with cambered panels.

    For the sake of science, I suggest someone make a similar, perfectly flat test panel with that lens added, preferably in a contrasting colour. If it turns out to work, it will be a quicker mod to make than the one you suggested, and a lot quicker and cheaper than making a new sail.

    Even more; then there would be hundreds of flat HM-style sails out there waiting for that lens modification. However, one must remember to strengthen the modified sail with a boltrope around it, since the vertical loads have moved out to the luff and leech.

    If the method does not turn out well, then there is the tuck (fold) method, shown in NL 26. This adds a bit camber, not so much, but better than a flat sail.

    Arne


    Arne, there is no reason at all why it would not work, that is essentially how a shelf foot sail is made. Except of cause you do it panel by panel rather than first making a flat sail and then cutting it up to put the lenses in.



  • 16 Oct 2017 00:24
    Reply # 5315845 on 5315607
    Stuart Keevil wrote:

    Sunday afternoon looking at pictures of junk sails on the web site and I was wondering if, assuming you had an old but serviceable flat junk sail it could be modified to a cambered sail using the 'shelf foot' method by cutting two segments either side of the battens of the existing sail and fitting a new flat section to the two edges of the segments, and adding new luff and leech tapes, thus saving making batten pockets etc.

    Thinking about it if it was me I suspect that the most difficult part would be cutting into the perfectly good sail, but it would be a cheaper way of trying a cambered sail without all the work of making a completely new one, or if it turned out to be a disaster giving one experience for the making of a new one :)

    Looking at pictures Arne's sails it is surprising how close their shape is to an elliptical planform.

    Yes, that is how I'd do it.
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