Sheet to tiller self steering, windvanes, and autopilots

  • 16 Feb 2014 00:08
    Reply # 1498902 on 1498637
    Robert Leask wrote:I may be obsessed with self steering, but that's because hand steering at sea is a Very Bad Thing, it's shaking hands with the devil, and I never want to do it, ever. That's why I've chosen a 3 masted rig like Alan Farrels China Cloud, because it should be very easy to balance and may have inherent self steering qualities in some conditions, at least. If I could sail without any rudder at all, I'd be delighted. 

    The ideal self steering system would be none at all, like Spray. I built my boat hoping to achieve that, but it didn't work out. Now I'm hoping the 3 masted rig will free me forever from hand steering but I won't know until it's done and I've logged a few miles. Setting up for sheet to tiller is a simple matter of making a couple of attachment points for blocks on either side of the tiller with a clear line of sight to the sheeting points, not much to it and not much lost if it doesn't work, so for sure I'm doing that.

    Regarding the problems Donald had on Eric the Red with batten compression due to easing the foresail sheets too far - could that be relieved by double sheeting and placing the sheeting points as far outboard and forward as possible? China Cloud had double sheets on all 3 sails. 


    I have made two passages where we hand steered, 3 hours on, three hours off.  Never again!  Anyway, I usually sail alone, so self-steering is essential, even when coastal cruising and anchoring most nights.  Luckily for me Arion is a very easy boat to balance and my windvane/autopilot system works well.   I remain unconvinced that sheet to tiller will work with a single sail.  Rigging a small jib forward, like Roger Taylor did on Ming Ming (though he didn't use it for self-steering) might work, but I don't like the stresses it places on an unstayed mast.  Three masts will give you plenty of options for adjusting balance, as long as the mizzen does not preclude a windvane.  I would not like to make a long passage alone without one.  Reading Brian Platt's book, and his struggles with this issue on High Tea's Pacific crossing, confirms this view for me.

    With regard to attaching the sheets to the tiller, one of my friends had a track running along the top of the tiller, so that he could easily move the attachment point fore and aft (further aft as the wind increases).  Re double sheets with the attachment point further forward along the battens - this will certainly improve the situation but I still think the compression loads will be unhealthy.  Once the battens have gone beyond athwartships, when you pull the sheet in you are putting tremendous compression loads on the battens.  PJR states that you MUST round up and spill the wind from the sail before sheeting in again.  The problem with doing this while running wing and wing, is that you have to gybe one of the sails first with slack sheets, risking a fan up, especially if the sails are already reefed.  I think the only safe way to use sheet to tiller downwind is to broad-reach with both sails out the same side.  I am quite sure you will be able to make this work in moderate conditions when you have a well-balanced sail plan.  In gale-force winds, with just  a scrap of sail up it may not be so easy.  However, I am delighted that we have a member with a passion for this approach to self-steering and look forward to reading of your results  in due course.

    PS:  I have just finished reading Brian Platt's account of his crossing of the Pacific on High Tea.  He was able to get the boat to self-steer on a broad reach by sheeting the foresail in tight, easing the main, taking a line from the foresail to the weather side of the tiller, with shockcord on the other side.  He used a variation of this, which he called tinkering, when sailing dead downwind.  He squared the main out, pulling its luff back towards the mast so it did not blanket the foresail quite so soon, usually reefing it sooner than necessary, but occasionally the boat would gybe when the wind eased.  This caused some rig damage.

    After he lost the mainmast mid-Pacific, he squared the mizzen out and sheeted the foresail fore and aft, with equal tension on both sheets.  A line was taken from the middle of the foresail on both sides back to the tiller, which was loosely lashed.  No matter which way the boat veered, the tiller twitched the boat back on course when the foresail filled with wind.  Occasionally a wave threw the stern around and the boat hove to beam on, forcing him to go on deck and put High Tea back on course.  He could not broad reach with this system, but the boat would self-steer with helm lashed when the wind was abeam. 
    Last modified: 16 Feb 2014 06:34 | Anonymous member
  • 15 Feb 2014 16:45
    Reply # 1498736 on 1497602
    Annie Hill wrote:
    David Tyler wrote:
    I've made a folder "Vane Gears" in my Google Drive and into it, I've copied the drawing of the vane gear that Annie and I made for Fantail, and also a drawing that I started, incorporating the best features of the gears on Tystie and Fantail
    I love my windvane gear and use it heaps.  It's ideal for sailing out my anchor and sails to windward far better than I do, once I lose concentration.  However, I have to say that it's very squirrelly once the wind is on the quarter or further aft.  Admittedly, I do largely coastal sailing where wandering off course is much more obivous than it is offshore, but if you are thinking of making these plans available, we should do a bit more to see if I can improve this.  I confess to using the autopilot in these conditions.

    Fantail will blast along at 7 knots with the wind abaft the beam, but it's too much for either self-steering gear and, frankly, too much for me.  I usually start reefing at about the middle of F4 and 'amble' along at 5+kt.  But the windvane still complains.  Fantail is light on the helm unless she is over-canvassed. 
    Annie, I suspect that you're getting some lost motion somewhere in the gear, as the configuration should give absolutely straight-arrow steering. That is, the lines tight enough (but not so tight as to bind), and all fixed parts of the gear rigidly fixed. I recall that we needed to rig a beam athwartships, on which to mount the lines that go to the tiller, and this was initially just a lash-up to see that it worked. Did it ever get firmly fixed in place?
  • 15 Feb 2014 13:21
    Reply # 1498637 on 1493031
    I may be obsessed with self steering, but that's because hand steering at sea is a Very Bad Thing, it's shaking hands with the devil, and I never want to do it, ever. That's why I've chosen a 3 masted rig like Alan Farrels China Cloud, because it should be very easy to balance and may have inherent self steering qualities in some conditions, at least. If I could sail without any rudder at all, I'd be delighted. 

    The ideal self steering system would be none at all, like Spray. I built my boat hoping to achieve that, but it didn't work out. Now I'm hoping the 3 masted rig will free me forever from hand steering but I won't know until it's done and I've logged a few miles. Setting up for sheet to tiller is a simple matter of making a couple of attachment points for blocks on either side of the tiller with a clear line of sight to the sheeting points, not much to it and not much lost if it doesn't work, so for sure I'm doing that.

    Regarding the problems Donald had on Eric the Red with batten compression due to easing the foresail sheets too far - could that be relieved by double sheeting and placing the sheeting points as far outboard and forward as possible? China Cloud had double sheets on all 3 sails. 

  • 15 Feb 2014 12:38
    Reply # 1498632 on 1493031
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    There can be several reasons why a windvane may struggle with holding the course. If the design itself is OK, then I guess there are three possible main problems to overcome:

     

    1.       The boat is directionally unstable.

    2.       The rudder is unbalanced, causing high tiller forces

    3.       The boat is a JR sloop which can give harder steering downwind than other rigs.

     

     

    In Case 1, I can think of three possible remedies:

    ·         Cure the hull by adding some sort of skeg to tame it.

    ·         If the boat has an inboard rudder, then fit an extra vane-operated outboard rudder, as described by Bill Belcher. The inboard rudder should be locked to make the boat course stable, and one can even offset it to trim out weather helm, making the job easier for the vane-operated rudder.

    ·         Fit a powerful servo pendulum rudder with sufficient negative feedback to avoid oversteering. This would also be my choice if the boat were prone to develop big weather helm when heeled over a bit (unbalanced hull).

     

     

    In Case 2,  the introduction of a  ‘bungee octopussy’  could be a useful quick fix: Back in the 80-s I made my 23’ Malena steer herself to windward over long stretches just by the use of  one to five thin bungees from the tiller and up to the weather rail. The trick was to use so just many bungees that when in balance, they were operating in the middle of their stretch range. My thinking is that if a windvane is on the small side to cope with the boat, one could first balance out the tiller forces with this 5-bungee ‘octopussy’, and then clip on the wind-vane. In some cases this will work. A strong servo pendulum system will, of course, be the ultimate solution.

     

     

    Case 3 is not so easy.  This could help

    ·         Hauling the sail more forward helps, but only to some degree.

    ·         Adding that bungee octopussy can also be helpful, but if the wind is gusty, it is not optimal.

    ·         Reefing. I have found that if I don’t set more sail downwind than my boats can carry close-hauled, the rudder angle needed is not big. Reefing definitely makes steering easier.

     

     

    Finally, all vanes have a minimum windspeed operational limit and that limit is highest when going downwind. On my OGT MKII I had a clip-on ‘topsail’ ready for the windvane to handle lighter wind.

     

     

    Cheers, Arne

     

     

    PS:

    Fighting friction is important in every wind-vane system, in particular to make it work in light winds.

    Last modified: 15 Feb 2014 12:40 | Anonymous member (Administrator)
  • 15 Feb 2014 07:36
    Reply # 1498592 on 1493031
    Deleted user
    It is handy to know sheet to tiller for your particular boat. I think we have some things worked out on Ashiki while the vane wasn't pulling its weight. Wouldn't want to be that unfortunate chap who hit the EPIRB button in the middle of the Pacific last year and abandoned.
    The problem: the autopilot died and he was exhausted from hand steering for 2 weeks. Otherwise the boat was perfectly fine.
  • 14 Feb 2014 20:33
    Reply # 1498281 on 1493031
    Deleted user
    [Webmaster note: Chris Gallienne posted the following in one of the Join In fora. I've moved it here.]

    Lots of info about early gears up to 1966 in AYRS Publication here. This was subsequently updated in 1999 under editorship of Mike Ellison as AYRS Publication 127, which doesn't seem to have been digitised yet, but also appeared as a book, available used from e.g. Abebooks and other places.

    [The JRA is a member of the AYRS and we've been given permission to provide links to all their downloadable magazine. I'll be doing that soon.]
    Last modified: 14 Feb 2014 20:35 | Deleted user
  • 14 Feb 2014 14:30
    Reply # 1498014 on 1493031
    Firstly, thank you all for your responses. Having no experience with junk sailing I needed some advice on the subject and my questions have been answered thoroughly. Joining this association has been well worth the price, just for this alone. I do think that sheet to tiller could be managed on any boat, including ones with single mast and single sail. I read somewhere once about a boat that was designed for sheet to tiller and used a sail up forward that was strictly for steering, nothing else. The tack was set up so that it could be moved athwartships to control the degree of wind shadowing from the main, which would give much more control over the course sailed. It would only need to be big enough to turn the rudder so wouldn't need to be heavy, or strongly supported.
  • 13 Feb 2014 22:04
    Reply # 1497602 on 1496668
    David Tyler wrote:
    I've made a folder "Vane Gears" in my Google Drive and into it, I've copied the drawing of the vane gear that Annie and I made for Fantail, and also a drawing that I started, incorporating the best features of the gears on Tystie and Fantail
    I love my windvane gear and use it heaps.  It's ideal for sailing out my anchor and sails to windward far better than I do, once I lose concentration.  However, I have to say that it's very squirrelly once the wind is on the quarter or further aft.  Admittedly, I do largely coastal sailing where wandering off course is much more obivous than it is offshore, but if you are thinking of making these plans available, we should do a bit more to see if I can improve this.  I confess to using the autopilot in these conditions.

    Fantail will blast along at 7 knots with the wind abaft the beam, but it's too much for either self-steering gear and, frankly, too much for me.  I usually start reefing at about the middle of F4 and 'amble' along at 5+kt.  But the windvane still complains.  Fantail is light on the helm unless she is over-canvassed. 
  • 13 Feb 2014 21:37
    Reply # 1497564 on 1495595
    Gary King wrote:
    A DIY vane is a lot of work because every boat is different.
    But it saves a lot of money!!
  • 13 Feb 2014 07:16
    Reply # 1497117 on 1493031
    I'd agree that effective windvane and autopilot systems are more convenient that sheet to tiller self-steering methods.  However, if they are rendered inoperable, perhaps it could provide a useful back up, assuming one has a multi-masted rig.  I also understand that some people like utter simplicity at the expense of a bit of fiddling.  And it is also my experience that being a bit off course on long ocean passages is neither here nor there.  The wind may well change direction tomorrow anyway...  I look forward to hearing of experiments in this area. 

    I am researching Brian Platt's voyage on High Tea for a future Hall of Fame article and have just read about his methods for self-steering to weather.  He notes that all vessels with mizzens can be made to self-steer to weather by leaving the mizzen sheeted more loosely than the main.  When the vessel rounds up, the mizzen spills wind, the centre of effort moves forward into the main, and the boat falls off again onto course.  If the boat falls off initially, the mizzen fills with wind and drives the bows back up.  The mizzen is always flapping a bit, but, as he notes, on a junk's fully battened sails this only amounts to a bit of fluttering.  High Tea had three masts, so had a mizzen, though he found it too small.  Although I have previously read his book, Parallel 40 North To Eureka, I've forgotten how he managed to self-steer on other points of sail, but will report details when I come to them.

    Despite a deep appreciation for my windvane and autopilot, I think this is an interesting and potentially very useful area for development and hope someone with the enthusiasm and a suitable rig takes it up.  I wish I could, but just cannot see how to do it with a single-masted junk.
       " ...there is nothing - absolutely nothing - half so much worth doing as simply messing about in junk-rigged boats" 
                                                               - the Chinese Water Rat

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