On batten angle with sewn-in cambered panels

  • 18 May 2025 02:21
    Reply # 13500447 on 13500302

    The reason for angled battens is to keep the leach end of the sail out of the water when the boat rolls in a seaway, without having to hoist the sail to far above the deck. It also keeps the sail above the crews heads....  Boats that don't have to go off shore can likely have the battens at any angle they may care to have them.

    Lastly, the surface of the water is a chaotic interface between the two mediums that has high turbulence, something our small boats cannot escape. I can see no reason to assume that the airflow is always parallel to the surface of the water. Likely it is anything but that.

  • 18 May 2025 01:53
    Reply # 13500441 on 13500302

    Paul it is hard to determine where the wind is blowing from on your track, but of possible directions it indeed looks much better than I anticipated.

    What I did mean in my last post is, that I understand your sketch as seen from behind and the wind coming in from the side.  Maybe you died not mean that? In that case for the Bermuda the flow over the top has negligible influence, since than only the apparent wind coming in from the front has any driving force.  If you meant the wind coming  in from behind (but why then should the sail heel?) The Bermuda has very poor results compared to a square sail, if not only for the small area exposed. I think what confuses is you showing wind going over the top when you probably did mean the boats are sailing upwind.

    (Had to take a little break)

    Regarding the battens of the junk, it seems to me that when they angle upward behind, they form the "nose" of an aerofoil and creating the turbulent vacuum behind. Higher up the angle is bigger, meaning the batten is more vertical and so coming closer to a full "aerofoil" with following bigger results.

    Last modified: 18 May 2025 02:04 | Anonymous member
  • 17 May 2025 20:42
    Reply # 13500397 on 13500302

    Nic,

    I fear I'm having troubles to understand your points. Would you mind to contemplate?


    However, it is simply wrong that "a junk rig" has poor windward ability - at least as long as it is cambered. Have a look at my attached track from today!


    Best

    Paul

    1 file
  • 17 May 2025 13:45
    Reply # 13500319 on 13500302

    That is OK. I would remark that with a Bermuda the wind flow over the top would not do anything in this situation since the camber is vertical and the drive comes from the low pressure after the camber. Since I have read that the junk rig performs poor in windward situations I can see how it works downwind. What I think is because of the many cambers you get firstly an increase in sail area and in addition a more complex vortex pattern which might possibly increases the vacuum on top of that.

    Edit:

    could it be that a vertical camber is formed at each panel in the front?

    Last modified: 17 May 2025 15:20 | Anonymous member
  • 17 May 2025 13:22
    Reply # 13500312 on 13500302
    It is a conceptual sketch, showing a vertical cut through the sail, looked at in the direction of a batten (... sorry for my complicated explanation.)
  • 17 May 2025 13:15
    Reply # 13500310 on 13500302

    Firstly Paul, is the drawing in your post seen from transom?

  • 17 May 2025 12:55
    Message # 13500302

    How does batten angle of the junk rig influence its (upwind) performance?

    Batten angle in a junk rig is typically set to something between 0-15°. For example, Arne K. used 10° boomrise angle for his Johanna, which is the same angle as the batten angle for the lower parallelograms.

    Now, in another thread we lively discussed the influence of the batten pockets of sails with sewn-in camber on aerodynamic phaenomena such as induced drag, tip vortex and the like. A story of a sailmaker was shared, calling those battens “aerodynamic fences

    We discussed the fencing effect of the sewn-in camber on induced drag – together with ideas about end plates – and speculated about how those “fences” aka batten pockets reduced that special kind of drag. Here again is one of the according sketches:

    Now, about this 2D-sketch I missed something: the 3D. If the angle of the batten pockets does not align with the airflow, it creates separation, vortexes and as such: drag! Have a look at those sketches:

    Parallel airflow at Arne's beautiful Broreman:


    Not so parallel airflow on this one:


    That batten angle/ boomrise angle is determined during sail design, and cannot be changed on the water (maybe only slightly by shifting the boom or the yard abow/abaft). However, not every boat sails with the same stiffness, i.e. a folkeboat heels more due to its hull shape than a for example a Maxi 77.

    ---

    Now, if we want a sail to better suit a given hull: Wouldn’t it be reasonable to have a lower boomrise/batten angle for the stiffer boat (more form stability) and a higher angle for a less stiff boat (less form stability)?

    ---

    Taking that thought further: How much sense does the upper triangle part of the HM sail do – aerodynamically? Those 2 high-angle battens at the top surely won’t do any good to the smooth airflow… Recent findings of Colin C. point towards the same direction: wouldn’t a all parallel sail be more effective - aerodynamically? (surely, there would be always pros and cons)


    Taking that thought even further (and playing the devil’s advocat here): Might that also be one of the reasons, if not THE reason, why Slieve’s split rig is so effective? Please prove me wrong, but as far as I could research his SJR mostly has low, if not very low yard angle and almost parallel upper panels…

    I’m very interested and open for any critical thoughts!

    Paul

     

    PS: of course this whole topic only relates to sewn-in camber panels (barrel cut, shelf foot, etc...). Flat cut sails or sails with camber created by batten-bending or similar are naturally not (or less) affected, as they lack those fencing batten pockets.

       " ...there is nothing - absolutely nothing - half so much worth doing as simply messing about in junk-rigged boats" 
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