Thanks David, I think for now I will try routing the halyards to the lewmar 65s in the cockpit as opposed to having these captive winches at the base of the masts, and then I will re-assess whether I want to install them later

Out of curiosity, by very heavy, would you describe a sail area as 80 meters squared as very heavy?

Returning to the question about captive winches, Rudolf Van Der Brug uses one for his halyard. I watched him hoist and lower his sail and using the brake, the sail came down in quick jerks that shook the whole boat. They are really meant to be used for Marconi sails, which are much lighter. 

Chris Gamble also uses one aboard his boat, in which he made a successful voyage from the UK to New Zealand. I think using a single part halyard puts a heavy strain on the mast, while a 4 part halyard divides that strain by that number.

Anonymous wrote:

Interesting, I wasn't aware of the CW800. Yes, the "high capacity" would appear to be a possibility, at 14.6m hoist and max pull 1200kg, used with a high spec 12mm line. But since you already have a pair of 50ST, I'd use these, with a bank of good quality clutches, to handle the halyards and sheets, and probably the Yard and Luff Hauling Parrels as well.

A 6inch mast is fairly common on JR boats of 7 - 8m. The 7m Hunter Duette Weaverbird that I used to sail has a 7in x 1/8in wall mast, carrying a 22sqm sail, and this was about right for rugged cruising, with enough stiffness, and strength to spare. I could have gone for 6in x 3/16in, but wouldn't have been comfortable with less.

Before that, I sailed Tystie, with various sails in the ~ 50sqm size range, with a mast that was 10in at deck level and about 12m LAP - I was comfortable with that for ocean crossings. I'm extrapolating from that experience to arrive [guess at] at 12in diameter.

David, do you happen to recall the wall thickness of the 10” mast you had on Tystie and what grade Aluminium it was, please?

Thanks, 

Simon

Anonymous wrote:

First, I have to say that I'm rather uneasy about the diameter of the masts - I'd expect to see something like 12in diameter, in aluminium or steel, or more in timber, to carry 79sqm on a boat of this size. They look smaller than this in the photos.

But about the winches: those Warrior winches do not look in any way suitable - not enough speed or rope capacity, and steel wire rope would not be suitable (though high modulus Dyneema or Spectra line is a possibility). Crab winches were used on commercial sailing vessels, for hoisting heavy sails, and I remember using one as a boy (terrifying!). They're still made in India (image of a typical one is attached), but I wouldn't recommend going this way.

The mainstream way of hoisting a modern junk sail is to use a self tailing winch, of suitable size and power, either manually powered, or with electric or hydraulic drive, in conjunction with a braid-on-braid rope halyard. There will be a multi-part purchase rigged, to reduce the load on the winch, and to improve safety. A heavy sail on a 1:1 halyard would come down dangerously fast if control were to be lost. My preference is for a 3:1 tackle on all sizes of sail, which is a good compromise between safety, speed and power.  I think I'd want a power ratio in the winch in the range 40:1 - 50:1 to hoist 79sqm, subject to more details of the total weight of the sail bundle (most of the weight in a junk sail is in the yard and battens).  

[Of course, drum winches are used on superyachts to keep control of heavily loaded lines- at superyacht prices]

Thank you very much for this information.

Regarding the masts:

The two masts are aluminium, and were made to this spec under professional consultation. But this did occur before I was in the picture. The main mast is roughly 6inches in diameter. Far below 12. I would be grateful to speak with you some more about this just in case they are unsuitable.

Regarding the winches:

The previous owner's plan was to replace the steel wire with dyneema and they calculated enough drum capacity, which I have not verified.

Personally, I am not convinced these would fare well being exposed to salt water and not suitably manufactured for the marine environment. If I went this direction I would probably get something like the image attached, a bit smaller and probably cheaper than the one in your link. Crab winches, I agree, and can imagine terrifying to use.

Most likely I will do exactly as you described, and use two hydraulic driven self tailing winches at the cockpit. There are two existing hydraulic Lewmar Ocean 50 STs that were intended to be used dedicated to the two sheet lines. I would either use these also for the Halyards as I am not intending to race, or will just get two extra winches so each line is on a dedicated service.

However,

I am still curious to hear some good reasons to avoid any form of captive barrel type winch for the halyards, assuming ideal conditions (marine grade winch, suitable power and capacity, speed).

Hello, I recently became the owner of a JR Schooner. The project was left incomplete by the previous owner passing away and I hope to finish it. My experience with junk rigs is so far non existent so apologies for any novice concepts.

The previous owner was going to mount two captive winches either side of the main mast, in front of the wheelhouse, pulling the hallyards. As I understand it, Junk Rigged reefing is simple and almost never fails or gets stuck. I believe his thinking was to rely on a captive winch, which at the push of a button would raise and lower the sail, and take any Halyard tail.

Traditionally on western boats, I have only seen people use Capstan winches for the halyards mounted at the cockpit. There are two points that I am curious about:

1- is this safe?

As opposed to the previous owner's plan which puts the captive winches in front of the wheelhouse,

The advantage for me having the hallyard winches at the cockpit is that if anything goes wrong I can manage from the safety of the cockpit.

2- are my assumptions correct?

Considering the main mast has a JR sail of 79m^2 as a sail area, I envisage a good level of assistance with a hydraulic winch will be helpful. If junk rigs never get stuck, then maybe this will be an ideal scenario for a captive winch?

Both winches would be mounted directly in front of the wheelhouse and will be driven with hydraulics. If anything was to go wrong, as it is not something that will require constant adjustment, it may be appropriate to leave the cockpit and tend to the winches manually?

I can see how on a Bermuda rigged boat this will seem like madness to some, but to me it seems to make sense on a junk rig?

P.s. the image of the winch, I didn't buy it....