mehitabel's motor system

  • 02 Jan 2013 06:34
    Reply # 1170166 on 1152590
    Hi John,

    I have your spreadsheet before me. You seem to have calculated speed vs. power for a very wide range of displacements. Is one of those close to the actual weight of Persephone?

    When I was trying similar calculations to predict mehitabel's power needs, I became totally mystified trying to reconcile the terminology of the diesel people with that of the electric gurus. Propeller people confused me even more.

    The mystery cleared up as soon as we had the tension data from towing the boat, and I'd calculated the actual power to overcome drag over a range of speeds. I applied educated guesses for efficiency (power to overcome drag / electric power input) and stayed with that. Turned out well - roughly, as I've said. That's the approach I can recommend.

    So I sure can't offer better advice in traditional diesel terms than Mr.Gerr, whose work I admire. I was happier after I abandoned horsepower and hull speed and intersecting power curves, for actual drag and electric efficiency, and a big prop.

    There is a spreadsheet on ThunderstruckEV's website that I found worth getting my head partway around. My own computing efforts are too custom and not presentable enough to be of general use... so I've concentrated on preaching the principles, and I've left the numbers more or less out.

    Cheers,
    Kurt

    Last modified: 02 Jan 2013 06:37 | Anonymous member
  • 01 Jan 2013 19:38
    Reply # 1169880 on 1169339
    John Cornicelli wrote:Good morning Kurt,

    I posted a spreadsheet of our calculations in the "Files" area. Would you mind having a look at our reasoning? Also, what do you know of electric motor behavior? We were wondering if we installed the highest power motor (the 35hp), and ran it at half (hull) speed, would battery drain decrease linearly? Next task is to calculate ranges for given conditions, we want to match a backup generator for extreme conditions.


    Hi John,

    I have a graph from the factory, which shows an efficiency curve for our brushless dual-stator motor. The efficiency is poor below 1kW, runs near 90% from 1.5 to 5kW, then slides below 80% at around 6kW. So, across the range that's useful for our boat, the efficiency changes very little, and battery drain would be fairly linear against power to the prop. 

    Low speeds, as I've implied, save power much better than linear... than linearly... betterly than... (you know what I mean.)

    For predicting range, I trust you're considering the actual effective capacity of your battery bank, at the amp-drawing rate you predict. Some battery specs tell it all, others don't.

    I'll look over your calculations. Remember, I'm an amateur. Fun stuff, eh!

    Cheers,
    Kurt
  • 31 Dec 2012 17:10
    Reply # 1169339 on 1166437
    Deleted user
    Annie Hill wrote:
    John Cornicelli wrote:... and we dropped the solar panel in the Potomac

    Oh dear.  I bet that spoilt a good day's sail!
    Good morning Kurt,

    I posted a spreadsheet of our calculations in the "Files" area. Would you mind having a look at our reasoning? Also, what do you know of electric motor behavior? We were wondering if we installed the highest power motor (the 35hp), and ran it at half (hull) speed, would battery drain decrease linearly? Next task is to calculate ranges for given conditions, we want to match a backup generator for extreme conditions.

    Oh, Hey Annie,

    It wasn't that much of a deal. Fishing it out was fun though. We didn't want it polluting the river. That piece of junk solar panel had a hard time even trickle charging the 12V house batteries at the best sun angle, and we could not optimize the sun angle for any decent length of time. We kept the controller for the future and use a wind generator instead.
  • 29 Dec 2012 21:25
    Reply # 1168556 on 1152590
    Hello Jean,

    mehitabel has a SailArea:Displacement Ratio of 15.8. This is low for light-wind sailing. Still, mehitabel ghosts along, comparing speed with nobody.

    Her electric power to displacement ratio is also low, and we only ever use the bottom range of it. Except when we throttle way up to test the set of the anchor.

    Speed is only one aspect of performance. 

    One-and-a-quarter times the speed takes roughly double the power, in the range around 3 to 5 knots or so. This is theoretically roughly right, and practically matches our crude measurements, approximately. The main point isn't the maths, it's the message: go slowly if power is precious.

    Using no fuel at all puts a zero in the denominator someplace, which makes the mathematics meaningless, but helps to properly define performance. Idling a diesel creates nothing useful, and that puts a zero in the numerator where its meaning is clear: waste.

    Patience is another factor that defies mathematics.

    Cheers,
    Kurt

  • 27 Dec 2012 19:38
    Reply # 1167454 on 1152590
    May I ask about the Sail/Displacement ratio of Mehitabel ? and how does she sail in very light wind (say around 5 knots) ? I can't really imagine  an electric propulsion but on a extremely 'light windable' boat without being on the grid for hours every day. But i would love to be wrong ... even if during my sailing days, the engine was one of the very rare equipment faultless (35 hp for 15 t displacement).

    I will also be glad to know the displacement of Footprints in front of the 9.9 hp outboard ? 
    Or in an other way, what do you think is the displacement limit of Footprints solution?

    Many thanks.
    Last modified: 27 Dec 2012 20:16 | Anonymous member
  • 26 Dec 2012 22:25
    Reply # 1167028 on 1152590
    Deleted user
    Jeff has kindly moved this discussion away from this topic to Seablossom's diesel problems in the same forum. Please use this topic only for mehitabel's motor system. Thanks.
  • 26 Dec 2012 19:31
    Reply # 1166967 on 1166863
    Jeff McFadden wrote: I have come to regret purchasing Seablossom.  Perhaps after I get her usable I will see it differently.

    Hey, Jeff, I'm sorry to hear that.  But we all go through that occasionally.  Most of us are lucky that at least occasionally, or sometimes quite often, we have other boaties around us to exhort and encourage us.  I guess being winter doesn't help.

    Re the tank.  Why not disconnect the old one, get a 25 litre outboard motor tank and use that?  Just strap it in somewhere handy.  Forget about the alloy one.  We had that sytem on Badger and it worked perfectly well.

    EDIT: I'll leave this as was. I posted as soon as I read that you were regretting your decision Jeff and then read on.  And then saw what Arne had said.  I decided to leave my post because I was astonished to see how we were both thinking so much along the same lines!  It must be something in the genes that makes one approach an issue in a certain way.
    Last modified: 26 Dec 2012 19:36 | Anonymous member
  • 26 Dec 2012 18:56
    Reply # 1166953 on 1152590
    Hi Jeff,

    I "bin dare 'n done dat" you are in a similar place that I was in 2004. The details differ but in many ways it's the same place. It's a trap, and one that has taken me nearly 8 years to get out of (it's still another 1 or 2 months before I'm completely out but I'm now confident that I will make it).

    Eight years of which four of them were essentially just the boat sitting as I had to deal with other commitments or because I was just too tired when I had time and was unable to motivate myself to put on my overalls and get to work. This whole project has just been me, with very little help from anyone else and few cared whether I succeed or failed. I came very close to losing my boat and the possibility of ever sailing on my own boat again. And this, even though I knew and loved the life style as I had been living it since 1989.

    In my case, it was an unavoidably large project (if you rip 2/3 rds of the bottom of your boat out, you have a large project on your hands) but my tendency to do everything as right as I possibly could plus the "well while we are here...") mentality which comes very natural to me, led to the taking on of literally hundreds other projects. Each small and insignificant on it's own but they all add up.

    What I should have done was be clear about what I wanted to achieve right from the start (which was fix the bottom and convert to junk rig) and stuck to that. Actually, I did not even need to fix the bottom, I was talked into it by others, none of whom did any of the work and those who committed themselves to help, once they realised just how big a project it was, they quickly found reasons to be elsewhere.

    Jeff, your situation is similar to where I was. You have a good basic boat that has a few problems but is otherwise in good shape and can be made sailable without to much effort if you can put aside getting everything just perfect before you go sailing. As I understand it, you have just two main issues. An engine/tank issue and a rig issue. I also understand that realistically you are intentionally going to be sailing a lake. Bearing that above in mind and what I have learnt in the hardest possible way (and assuming your goal is to get sailing), if I where you, this is what I'd do.

    The engine: It's a small but will do the job. If it's now in good nick (I know you had problems) and it's going to be reliable, pull the engine, pull the tank. Fix the tank properly (I don't believe the West epoxy will do it, the metal needs specific treatment if the treatment is to succeed.) and put it all back. Don't make modifications that are not needed but tidy up the wiring (I believe you said you needed to do this).

    If the engine is dubious, forget about it. Get yourself a 9hp Yamaha with remote control, make or have a bracket to put it on. If you need more battery charging capability than the Yamaha can provide, get a solar panel(s) and an MPPT controller for it. You also/or get one of the Honda Inverter gensets.

    I don't like outboards as propulsion for a yacht but it's the quickest way to solve the problem right now.

    The Junk Rig: You know what you have to do here now. The fastest and most straight forward is the HM sail that I did for you. Every inch of the way has been mapped for you. All you need to do is get 4 odd roles of Odyssey III and start cutting and sewing. The mast you now have and the battens are straight forward.

    If you cannot resist the lure of the Fantail type sail, it's a little more complex and the sailmaking will take longer but I'd still use Arne's method to do the camber. Given that you are going to do a lot of your sailing in light winds (at least at first) put a decent amount of camber in. Your hull type needs it.

    The above will get you on the water ASAP. Then you will have the leisure to sort the engine (if you still want to) and other things out and make things exactly how you want them. As I understand it, you will bring Seablossem home at the end of each sailing season. That being the case, going forward you can plan projects for each winter, slowly making Seablossem into the boat you want and still have the pleasure of sailing each summer. You will also find, that as you sail, your ideas of what you want to do and need to do will change and what you think to want/need to do now, may not be it.

    PS: Arne's suggestion about the outboard tank is also good.
    Last modified: 26 Dec 2012 18:57 | Anonymous member
  • 26 Dec 2012 18:47
    Reply # 1166943 on 1152590
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    Jeff, the trick is to not take on all projects in one go. If it is possible to get the engine back in business without removing it, then just forget about the tank for now. Just empty it. Then buy an ordinary outboard engine petrol tank and connect that to the engine’s diesel filter intake via a quick-connection (..fit an extra stop valve on each side of the quick connection as this tends to leak a bit...). With this quick fix you have engine enough for the summer and can focus on the rig, and the joy of sailing. Next year or the next after that you may fit a proper diesel tank - after one or two seasons with sailing. BTW, I think your boat will sail fine. Just don’t make the sail too small ;-) (..and flat...)...

    Cheers, Arne

  • 26 Dec 2012 15:45
    Reply # 1166863 on 1166801
    Deleted user
    Arne Kverneland wrote:

                                                                   Stavanger, Wednesday

    Jeff, I agree so much with Annie. After all, the distances you will cover will be moderate in the lake that your boat sits now, so pollution and fuel costs will be negligible compared to that of your car. Besides, I warn against fighting on two fronts: Your rigging and sailmaking project will keep you plenty occupied for a while. As for the engine, I would just change oil, oil filter and fuel filter and fit a big, new starting battery for the next season to ensure quick start and trouble-free running (or is the Yanmar already defect?).

    My friend Victor fell in the two-front trap. He bought a 31-footer a couple of years ago. When motoring the few miles home, the engine wasn’t happy. Although the fault could be traced to filthy diesel, he chucked out the whole engine and started a big experimental project with electric propulsion. The result is that his boat has been a berth queen since then. Neither the new JR nor engine system is operational yet (but hopefully this spring).

    Arne

    All good points and well taken.  I guess that sometimes I just get to dreaming.  To take your questions in order, I haven't finished the engine re-assembly yet, but found on my way to there that the aluminum diesel tank is leaking.  The engine sits on top of the tank, so if I want to remove the tank for replacement or repair, I have to pull the engine out of the engine room as step 1.  Or attempt some chemical patch with the tank in place.  If I pull the engine it will be easier to finish the reassembly with it out.
    If I pull the engine and tank I will probably fabricate a new tank out of epoxy, plywood, and fiberglass cloth.  A thousand dollars won't get a new one custom built out of either aluminum or stainless steel.
    This is a known problem with Nor'Sea 27's, especially from the original builder.  The builders got the bolts for the bottom pintles up against the tank, and they're dissimilar metals, and...  You can see the stain of diesel on the outside of the keel around the bottom pintle.
    I do have access to the inside of the tank via a round hole about the size of my forearm which is accessible with the engine in place.  I have considered pumping out all the diesel, cleaning  the tank with a drying solvent like acetone, and pouring in about a 10 to 15 mm layer of West System's G-Flex 650, which is formulated to stick to metals.  Assuming that the tank isn't leaking anywhere else that might be a fix in place.  Not slow... not fast... just half fast.  :-(
    I have come to regret purchasing Seablossom.  Perhaps after I get her usable I will see it differently.
    My initial preference would have been to attack on one front, that being the interior, which has fallen so far down the list as to be only a dim memory.  That was back when I thought I had purchased a usable boat.
       " ...there is nothing - absolutely nothing - half so much worth doing as simply messing about in junk-rigged boats" 
                                                               - the Chinese Water Rat

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