Cash prize of 250 GBP - Dinghy Design Competition

  • 05 Apr 2022 08:24
    Reply # 12694323 on 10211344

    Graeme,

    yes I am aware of the threads you have highlighted. What I am suggesting is a thread specifically aimed at creating a set of criteria for a dinghy design competition. This would allow feedback from potential entrants prior to the actual design competition and would hopefully lead to a set of criteria that the judges could use to more accurately assess the entries and come to a result. 

  • 05 Apr 2022 08:04
    Reply # 12694306 on 12694072
    Annie wrote:

    Anyway, how difficult is it to present a full set of plans and to give people a choice of how they build the dinghy?

    Not difficult. It just takes more time, and a professional designer (that is, one who charges a fee for each job he does, just like a lawyer or a plumber) has to ask himself the question: "Is it worth it? If I do this extra work, will it result in extra income for me in more plans sold?"

    A salaried designer (as I was) has more freedom, but still has deadlines to meet and bosses to satisfy, and cannot spend unjustifiable amounts of time on a project, if there's no prospect of economic payback.

    An amateur designer has no such constraints. He can spend ridiculously uneconomic amounts of time on a project, if he so chooses, but has complete freedom over what he chooses to include or to leave out of a design, having nobody to please but himself. In short, if I choose to state that my dinghy design is best suited to CNC cutting, with full size paper patterns as a good second best, and with offsets as a poor third - I can.

  • 05 Apr 2022 07:02
    Reply # 12694258 on 10211344
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    .Dave W : ... a larger dinghy in the 12 to 14 foot range to allow for camp cruising... and could be the subject of a post to gain input from interested parties ...


    There are already at least three threads running on this topic:

    Junket Boats

    Open little sailboats, suited for daysailing or camping - with or without a JR

    and

    SibLim 4 metre dinghy


    Last modified: 05 Apr 2022 07:03 | Anonymous member (Administrator)
  • 05 Apr 2022 06:29
    Reply # 12694238 on 10211344

    As the designer of three of the entries I have the following comments.

    All of my designs have been built, so I know that they work.

    Both AD and DD can be built by copying the sheet layouts from the design onto sheets of plywood, the only curves are in the bottom panels and these are fairly simple to set out. Either could be built on the beach by a reasonably handy person from the sets of drawings.

    My Webb 8 design was done for a friend about 40 years ago, to create a jig from which he could build a series of dinghies. I actually built a jig when building the prototype and around 20 dinghies were built from it over a period of approximately ten years, mostly with my friend who owned the Wooden Boar Center in Marina Del Rey, California. Two of us ended up being able mark, cut out and assemble a dinghy hull in one day, the finishing taking an additional two days for one person, then the painting.

    The dinghy design competition was interesting in the variety and quality of the entries received. It has been suggested that a second competition be organized for a larger dinghy in the 12 to 14 foot range to allow for camp cruising. This is an interesting concept and I have some ideas for an entry or two if one is organized. I would suggest that the entry criteria be a little more strict and could be the subject of a post to gain input from interested parties prior to the start of the competition.


  • 05 Apr 2022 00:39
    Reply # 12694121 on 10211344
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    As a builder of a small boat like this, if I had just hull offsets, the only way I can think of to actually get plywood panels to build it would be to plug those offsets into some program to obtain plywood sheet layouts so that I could cut them out and build it... maybe I am just too amateur...

    Len, you mean you couldn't build it without a computer?

    I think maybe Annie has a point.

    You just make a couple of temporary frames (or molds) out of anything at all, fit your chine logs (if you use them), put your roughly cut plywood panels over this "framework", in pairs, and shave them down so they fit, using the Mk1 eyeball. If no chine logs, then you might have to put in a few ties or stitches, and you need acces to the inside so you can apply your epoxy fillets.

    You are right in that it is more convenient if you can get the side and bottom panels direct from a full size computer printout, (though be warned, other people, those printouts have to be pretty accurate, more so than frames - its still probably safer for an amateur to cut them oversize and then whittle them down). I think if I were building a frameless epoxy fillet dinghy (which I have never actually done full size) I would probably rather have a full size CAD printout template for the planks - and I am surprised that Annie, who is an absolute Master when it comes to epoxy, doesn't see it that way.

    However, although it gives me joy to see the younger generation so accomplished and intuitive with computer-aided processes - like Annie, I would hate to see them growing up with total dependance on it. That's why I loved Slieve's KISS idea so much - give 'em a cardboard breakfast cereal box and tell 'em go design and build a dinghy, and have it done by lunch time!

    PS Still, I am impressed with Len, building a musical instrument using a simple CAD application. Hats off to you - I don't think I could do that.

    Its raining now.

    You know, full size paper patterns have been around for a while. Way back in the good old days, Richard Hartley was flat out marketing his plans for ferrocement motor sailers, and on the assumtion that you didn't even need to know how to loft, before taking on what, today, I would regard as a pretty massive project, he provided full size paper templates for the frames. Like Annie says, they moved around a bit depending on humidity, but that didn't seem to matter too much, a bit of fairing up was always going to be necessary anyway. He might have had another motive too. Has anybody ever seen a set of lines for a Hartley motor sailer? I haven't. (I've seen the lines for the Matangi though!). 

    It doesn't pay to assume the builder is too stupid - Richard also advocated a quick and simple way of making a curved transom, on the basis that a properly developed transom would be beyond the ability of his clients - a sad mistake I believe. That's why every Hartley motor sailer I have ever seen, (27', 33', 38' and 45'), which are actually not bad boats, all have that same ugly transom.

    Last modified: 05 Apr 2022 08:51 | Anonymous member (Administrator)
  • 04 Apr 2022 23:48
    Reply # 12694076 on 12693618
    Anonymous wrote:

    Len,

    did you buy full-size drawings to simplify  lofting the planks and other bits, or did you have to loft the bits from tables of offset?

    hulls.exe has been around for about as long as the internet made finding such a thing possible. There are better also free programs for designing hulls with. From experience, I used hulls.exe to design (of all things) a guitar body (well mandocello actually) and was able to cut all the pieces out directly from the plank layouts supplied by that program and they all fit together as they should have. Certainly amateur as these things come but full of curves in various directions.

    The tools an amateur has access to is a world different than even a few years ago but then so are the methods anyone uses in boat building.

    Having said all that, the offsets that would be used for cutting plywood planks are not the same as offsets used to develop frames for plank on frame building. Rather offsets from a plywood panel corner or the centre line of a plywood piece. As a builder of a small boat like this, if I had just hull offsets, the only way I can think of to actually get plywood panels to build it would be to plug those offsets into some program to obtain plywood sheet layouts so that I could cut them out and build it... maybe I am just too amateur...

  • 04 Apr 2022 23:37
    Reply # 12694072 on 10211344

    While the idea of full-size patterns printed out is all well and good, I would point out that not every printer produces a perfect copy,  Moreover, paper moves quite considerably with humidity and this can lead to unsatisfactory results.  And as Graeme said, for many of us, a high-quality print on a single sheet of film would not be available within 100 miles of where we live.

    But the real point is that the satisfaction of doing things from scratch is profound.  It's ridiculous to scoff at it as being old-fashioned: where is the logic in sailing a boat instead of using a motor (disregarding for the moment, the ethical objections to using an engine).  Why would anyone take bearings?  Row a dinghy?  Use paper charts?  Write a log with pen and paper instead of typing it on to a screen?  Because that's the way they want to do it: it may not be modern, it may not even be rational, but it gives someone satisfaction.

    As for the children learning to loft: no, I'm not 'projecting' on to them.  The idea was to give them an idea of what building a boat entails.  If they are hooked and want to go on to build a bigger one, knowing what offsets are will be essential.

    And I would suggest that putting a camber into a junk sail also involves the concept of offsets.

    As the climate crisis develops, it's people with hands-on skills who will be the ones people turn to.  Just ask rural Australians after the most recent flooding.  Teaching our children manual skills is not looking back to a more unsophisticated life, it is actually helping to prepare them for an uncertain future.

    Anyway, how difficult is it to present a full set of plans and to give people a choice of how they build the dinghy?

  • 04 Apr 2022 23:18
    Reply # 12694062 on 10211344
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    It depends.

    For an open dinghy like Arne’s design I think a table of offsets should be provided and I agree with Annie who wrote “Some people may want to do everything themselves - I certainly would”. There is something good about turning a table of numbers into a set of hull sections (all by one’s self!), setting up some frames, seeing its shape for the first time, and basking for a moment or two in the self-delusion that the job is already half done. There is joy in it. (A professional has little time for that, the motive being to get the job done as efficiently as possible and usually in the least labour-intensive manner. Skill and quality of result doesn’t come into the discussion - one expects that from a professional as a matter of course).

    On the other hand, I must also confess to a moment of epiphany while making the scale model of David’s “Sibling Tender”. It took me by surprise really, after struggling a little trying to slot together the little bits and pieces of plywood that came from tracing a computer printout – suddenly to find a self-jigged dinghy already “in the stocks”, with side bulkheads, side seats and other parts of the floatation chambers already done!


    Suddenly - you have to do it to experience it - one sees the point in it. (And if you have ever done it, retro-fitting buoyancy tanks is a no fun at all). This rather more sophisticated design would be very tiresome to make if one had to loft not only the sections, but also the fore-and-aft panels which make the complete kitset. And as a bonus, the planking itself can also be cut fairly accurately and fitted, rather than the time-honoured amateur way of slapping a roughly shaped piece of plywood over the frame and then whittling it down to fit. This is especially so in the case of multi-chine dinghies, and for all I know, could probably even extend to the making of planks for a clinker dinghy (at least, a modern plywood one, but I have never built one of these.)

    My conclusion, from building a model of each of the dinghy design contestants, is that the simple open dinghies, especially those built over frames and chine logs, are just as well made from a table of offsets. More sophisticated designs (multi-chine and those with built-in buoyancy) are probably better designed from and built from CAD. It should also be recognised, and David has hinted at it – us oldies need to try harder to see things through the eyes of the next generation. My kids and grand kids all grew up with kitset toys and kitset model animals etc that slot together, and can tear apart a package of kitset pieces and have it built in minutes without bothering to read the instructions. They are used to this paradigm, expect it, and generally in more of a hurry to get things done than I am these days.

    [Speaking of which: I should be outside doing other things, but I can't help inserting this one about Donald Trump who, some time in the recent past, felt the need to demonstrate his intelligence, and decided to do so by referring to one of these kitsets. Proudly announced that he was able to assemble one in just a little over six weeks, when the writing on the box said "suitable for four years"]

    I can’t see anything wrong with Arne’s suggestion that CAD plans should provide offsets as well, for those that want them. For open dinghies built over frames and traditional chine logs, offsets are all you need. For more sophisticated plywood shapes, and for self-jigging and self-fitting of buoyancy chambers – and for dinghies which have only planking (no frames or chine logs and held together by epoxy fillets) – CAD makes more sense here. Some people might enjoy to take the time to loft them - I not so sure that I would.

    (Regarding the dinghy design competition, and the use of computer print-outs in the building process – I don’t want to get dragged into any controversy about winners and losers but I must make the observation that full size printers are not as commonly available down on a beach front, as a pencil and ruler. (“think along the lines of building on a beach when the inflatable gives up the ghost unexpectedly…”

    As a matter of fact, Slieve’s KISS concept didn’t even need offsets, and I can’t remember about Boxer now, but it could easily have been built without offsets too, same with the box boat models, they certainly don’t need full size drawings).

    So, its horses for courses again isn’t it?


    PS I must add - good luck to Karl A. (who is an accomplished dinghy builder as I see from his blog) - looking forward to a report and some photos on the building of David's CAD designed 3-plank tender.

    Last modified: 05 Apr 2022 06:15 | Anonymous member (Administrator)
  • 04 Apr 2022 21:17
    Reply # 12693934 on 10211344
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    David

    There is (or should be) a big difference between how a professional designer makes ready a set of plans for sale, and how we in this specific 8-foot dinghy competition work:

    • ·         A designer will design and then have built a prototype. Then changes and improvements will be made, maybe more than once. Then, finally, the finished plans, digital or on paper, can be sold.  In other words; since the designer expects or hopes to sell a number of plans without receiving complaints afterwards, he can and should invest more time in making the design good.
    • ·         Most of our proposed 8-foot dinghies were prototypes, and not built yet. Even the winning model was as far as I know not built.

    Therefore, the professionally made plans stand a better chance to produce boats without bad defects than our attempts do. This, regardless of design method or method of cutting in plywood.

    Arne


    Last modified: 05 Apr 2022 00:01 | Anonymous member (Administrator)
  • 04 Apr 2022 20:12
    Reply # 12693766 on 10211344

    In what way are we running astray, Arne?

    The only thing that distinguishes a professional from an amateur is that he needs to get paid for his work. The quality of the work need not be different.

    Surely you cannot be saying that an amateur designer must necessarily design for slow, inefficient, difficult building processes, and that he must not give a first time builder all possible help to build an acceptable boat? That would be the exact opposite of all you've done in the sailmaking sphere. 

       " ...there is nothing - absolutely nothing - half so much worth doing as simply messing about in junk-rigged boats" 
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