Cash prize of 250 GBP - Dinghy Design Competition

  • 20 Apr 2021 07:43
    Reply # 10330465 on 10211344
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    That's what I meant.

    I wasn't suggesting chine runners, I was suggesting the mini-bilge keels which David Th's boat has.


    Addition: the guy who wrote that article David T refers to has over-promoted chine runners in the past, in my opinion, and I would not take it too seriously. in fact, apart from the Paradox and its little sister, not much is known about the concept, which may well be in the "too good to be true" category.

    I would not suggest chine runners (see HFJY34 thread)- my previous post was merely to ask what David and Arne and others think about the "bilge runners", or "little bilge keels" if you will,  which David has found successful on his new catamaran. I was wondering if they would present noticeable drag when rowing.

    Last modified: 20 Apr 2021 09:05 | Anonymous member (Administrator)
  • 20 Apr 2021 07:37
    Reply # 10330463 on 10329746
    Graeme wrote:

    Would something like this, on Halibut or the mini-SIBLIM  be worth a try?

    This is David Th's bilge runner (see HFJY34 thread)

    It doesn't take all that much to get a dinghy to go to windward.

    For a SibLim 2.3m, that is principally a rowing tender that's occasionally sailed - yes, that's worth considering.

    For a SibLim 4m, that is principally a sailing boat for junkets and open boat cruising - I'm not so sure. It seems that chine runners work on boats of a certain type and with certain proportions - long, narrow and deep, with a rectangular midship section. David's are really mini bilge keels, which are a different thing and need to be designed differently. 

  • 20 Apr 2021 07:26
    Reply # 10330457 on 10211344
    Arne wrote:

    PS 19.4.2021

    I will complete the plans for Halibut in due course, but I will not bother with participating in the design competition. Spring is here, and it’s time to make my Ingeborg ready for sailing. I’ve received the first Covid vaccine shot, so I will rather focus on ‘real life’ again. Designing dinghies was well and fine during the lock-down, but is off less interest now. Besides, I am reluctant to compete with an untried boat.
    I wish you good luck with your entries.

    A.

    I'm of a similar view. I'm into my countdown to go cruising at the end of the month, and busy with antifouling and storing up. Maybe when I return at the end of summer, I'll do more on the SibLim 4m as a Junket boat, because that's the real need, not a sub-8ft tender, and it's the only way that I'm going to get a SibLim of my very own. Like Arne, I wouldn't want others to think of building something that I hadn't at least modelled at reduced size myself, and I don't think it was a good scheme to make this a competition anyway.

    Last modified: 20 Apr 2021 07:38 | Anonymous member
  • 20 Apr 2021 00:43
    Reply # 10329746 on 10211344
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    Would something like this, on Halibut or the mini-SIBLIM  be worth a try?

    This is David Th's bilge runner (see HFJY34 thread)

    It doesn't take all that much to get a dinghy to go to windward.

    Last modified: 20 Apr 2021 05:30 | Anonymous member (Administrator)
  • 11 Apr 2021 23:06
    Reply # 10300147 on 10211344
    Deleted user

    There are countless dinghy designs out there.... I'm sure there are improvements to be made, but the most important outcome here is a compelling and simple junk rig template for a dinghy, and Arne's Halibut JR seems to be that.  The instant reefing, and the ability to braille it to the mast for removal makes for a nice package. 

    I look at that truncated bottom panel, and I ask myself if perhaps the next level so to speak would be to make the bottom panel triangular by ending the luff at the forward end of the second batten, and lengthening the foot of the sail while eliminating the boom altogether.  The lazy jacks would attach to the end of the second batten, and each panel would be 2M to the side.   The first two reefs would be normal junk rig reefs into the lazy jacks, and the third would be fathering the bottom panel and tying it to the bundle.   This would put the reefed sail above a rower's head.  The second batten would be the boom.   A "loose footed junk rig".  


         At age 12, I instigated the building of 14 skin on frame canoes in the school shop when I bought a Trailcraft 17' canoe kit and asked to build it in school shop.  We duplicated all the pieces and built 14 of them that year.  Our "canoe factory" made the newspaper.   I'd love to see something similar with junk rigged dinghies, but I think 8' is a bit on the small size for sailing fun.   It's  more than possible to build a simple sailing dinghy 10' long and keep the basic weight down to around 50 lbs.   Make it simple, sexy, and inexpensive to build. Every kid's dream is to sail off to that far wooded point in the distance, that small island, the other side of the lake where nobody else goes, and explore isn't it ;-)


  • 09 Apr 2021 11:56
    Reply # 10290636 on 10211344
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    Deviding the JRA dinghy project into two steps.

    Now it looks to me that the discussion around the 2.4m JRA dinghy has completed a full circle. I and others started with suggesting rowing-only tenders. I then added a dead simple downwind sail, but with no board or rudder planned for it. Then came the junk rig demand, and the 3-panel sail for Halibut was introduced. At the same time, the lines of Halibut were adjusted for better stability. After many words written around the bow-board, leeboards, fixed keel and, finally, the usefulness of a rig at all, we are now back on the rowing tender.

    Here is what I will do:
    Step One:
    I will present the Halibut design with the cb. slot fitted from Day One. I will then suggest that you build it with the slot in (easier during building than retrofitting it), and then go rowing in it.

    Step Two:
    If the desire arises for sailing Halibut, the rig, rudder and bow-board can be constructed and fitted to complete the project.

    Arne

    PS 19.4.2021
    I will complete the plans for Halibut in due course, but I will not bother with participating in the design competition. Spring is here, and it’s time to make my Ingeborg ready for sailing. I’ve received the first Covid vaccine shot, so I will rather focus on ‘real life’ again. Designing dinghies was well and fine during the lock-down, but is off less interest now. Besides, I am reluctant to compete with an untried boat.
    I wish you good luck with your entries.

    A.


    Last modified: 19 Apr 2021 10:18 | Anonymous member (Administrator)
  • 09 Apr 2021 09:15
    Reply # 10290141 on 10211344
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    No David, I expressed that poorly. Not talking about skin on frame (I've never even seen one) or super light weight. By referring to Annie's dinghy I was more referring to its "niceness" in relation to being dragged on its skegs.

    A JRA dinghy such as Arne's Halibut should be easy to carry that way. 8' is about the limit, unless you are tall. You stand it on its transom, snuggle the small of your back into the thwart, reach up with your hands to the forward thwart - and lean forward/straighten your legs, and you can waddle along no problem. The weight is not much of a problem and its easy to put down. Its more a question of your reach. Easier than trying to get a miniature curragh  onto your back, I should think, although I've never seen one of them either. I'm only average strength - less these days.

    Last modified: 09 Apr 2021 09:41 | Anonymous member (Administrator)
  • 09 Apr 2021 08:45
    Reply # 10290094 on 10211344
    (If it were lightly and nicely built, like Annie’s FanTan, I think I would rather carry it on my back like a turtle, which is easy and often done here.)

    We're straying into "The Ideal Tender" territory here, rather than "JRA tender designed to sail under JR" territory. But yes, a dinghy that weighs the bare minimum is best carried coracle- or curragh-fashion, on the back. When I had a miniature curragh, 2.65m long x 1m beam, I could very easily swing it up onto my back by grasping the thole pins. A skin-on-frame boat makes a very satisfactory lightweight rowing or paddling tender, but perhaps not a sailing tender.


  • 09 Apr 2021 08:29
    Reply # 10290055 on 10211344
    We have to ask why a tender should be sailed at all. In my experience it is mainly for fun, will take place mainly in the sheltered waters of an anchorage, often involving children, and where  I live, almost certainly off a gently shelving beach.

    Indeed we do have to ask. It's not because sailing is the best way of propelling a yacht's tender when it is acting in its main role of conveying crew and stores between mothership and shore. Rowing a dinghy is better for moving a heavy load to windward, and paddling a kayak is better for making a lot of distance to windward. That being so, I tend to agree with the concept of providing a tender with means for sailing to and fro across the wind for fun in the manner of a sailboard, which generally only has skegs. Twin skegs on a tender would seem to answer well enough. 

    Samuel Johnson wasn't a small boat sailor, but if he had been, he might have chosen a different simile here:

    Boswell: I told him I had been that morning at a meeting of the people called Quakers, where I had heard a woman preach.  Johnson: "Sir, a woman's preaching is like a dog's walking on his hind legs. It is not done well; but you are surprised to find it done at all."
  • 08 Apr 2021 20:49
    Reply # 10288512 on 10211344
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    I think this is an improvement on the original concept in that it provides for the first time a way of mounting the board which looks mechanically credible, ie could actually be removeable, firm while in place – and with a limited ability to fold back in the event of striking something. As you say, “half way” between a dagger board and a swinging board. (I guess it is held in the vertical position by a “weak link” (breakable dowel peg))?

    A dagger board right at the bow, which is what this essentially is, might perhaps need to be able to break out of the slot in the manner you have drawn. I take it there is some sacrificial component pinning it in place?  (Maybe a bungy would be better than carrying a bag full of replacement dowels). Otherwise the bow transom would need to be good and strong to absorb the impact of the leveraged board hitting the bottom, the dinghy and contents having potentially quite a lot of momentum. I still don't like it much. As David points out, it is an inherently directionally unstable configuration - you won't have time to tie your shoelaces with this one, in fact I'd be inclined to leave my shoes ashore.


    We have to ask why a tender should be sailed at all. In my experience it is mainly for fun, will take place mainly in the sheltered waters of an anchorage, often involving children, and where  I live, almost certainly off a gently shelving beach. A dagger board on such a tiny dinghy perhaps makes more sense than a swinging board – both have their merits - but there is no way I would put it in the bow even if it proved possible to sail with it in that position. I leave that to you, in your beautiful sailing grounds.

    Arne wrote: “…and the board itself could be fitted and removed from the safety of the fore thwart”.

    I think I would remove the word “safety”, as an adult kneeling on the forward thwart of a lightly constructed 8’ pram dinghy is going to have an interesting effect on the trim if there are no other occupants. If caught in a squall and a bit of a chop, at the head of a bay, you’d want to be careful doing that. Don't forget the clutter of the mast and sail right up there as well, and all that needs to be negotiated while retrieving the board and bringing it into the dinghy, in the event of needing to revert to rowing.

    I return to my original question “why?” and have now convinced myself that if the dinghy were mine I would simply give it a little bit of fixed draft, by way of a deadwood keel from the forefoot to amidships. Then a pair of matching (depth) skegs aft, as I agree this is best if you are dragging the dinghy down a concrete boat ramp. 

    (If it were lightly and nicely built, like Annie’s FanTan, I think I would rather carry it on my back like a turtle, which is easy and often done here.)

    With the amount of rocker you have, an increase of 50mm in the draft full length would probably be enough to sail to windward, and it would sit nice and flat on a trailer or upright on a roof rack too. And maybe it would row better too? (I am not sure.)


    Anyway - I am sure I am not alone in awaiting with considerable interest (and a certain amount of anticipation) the results of your trials with the bow board. Your willingness to push the boundaries is admirable. I am sure the Wright Brothers were given as much skepticism from the sideline.


    Last modified: 09 Apr 2021 02:42 | Anonymous member (Administrator)
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