Cash prize of 250 GBP - Dinghy Design Competition

  • 08 Apr 2021 14:38
    Reply # 10287320 on 10211344
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    Graeme,
    maybe we could meet on the middle?
    Here I have brought the bow-board more or less inboard by fitting it in an open-front cb. trunk. The buoyancy bulkhead (not shown here) will be the aft wall of that trunk, and the buoyancy tank will effectively be cut into two separate ones. This slot for the new cb. cum bow-board will be rock steady, and the board itself could be fitted and removed from the safety of the fore thwart.

    Arne


  • 08 Apr 2021 10:53
    Reply # 10286769 on 10211344
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    Thanks, David,
    Bic must have beefed up the design since I bought mine for Malena. That makes sense, as mine felt rather 'thin'...
    Arne

    Last modified: 08 Apr 2021 10:54 | Anonymous member (Administrator)
  • 08 Apr 2021 10:47
    Reply # 10286752 on 10211344

    The Sportyak 213 is too heavy for me, at 23Kg. That's more than my larger kayak at 18Kg, and it would be impossible to stow aboard. The 3D tender's bare weight is 8Kg, with only a foam seat and paddle to be added.

  • 08 Apr 2021 10:37
    Reply # 10286715 on 10211344
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    David,
    and then there is the 7’ (18kg?) Bic Sportyak. I had one for several years, and liked it. It could carry two not too big persons and rowed well enough. I kept it on deck for longer trips, and towed it behind when inshore. It eventually fell apart  -  the bottom was rather thin...

    Arne


  • 08 Apr 2021 10:20
    Reply # 10286690 on 10211344
    PS Also hoping David will progress his thinking, at least to the "proposal" stage. Much as I like the "pre lim" - it would be good to have a "san ban" also for consideration, as I still think "three planks" is good enough for such a small dinghy.

    No, sorry Graeme, I'm not going any further, as I've said. If someone approached me, and said that they need to build a dinghy but that their requirements are not met by any existing design, I'd do what I could to help; otherwise, designing in a vacuum is rather pointless. Arne says he is his own 'client' and is designing halibut for his own needs. Fair enough. If I consider myself as my 'client', then my need is for a lightweight tender that can be rolled up and stowed in Weaverbird's forepeak, or kept on the starboard side deck. Just possibly a hard tender could fit there, but it would have to be something like a cross between a sit-on-top kayak, a punt and a SUP, 3m long and 0.8m wide - and it's very unlikely that anyone else would have the exact same requirement.   

    For information, I've withdrawn my 3D superlight round tail tender from sale, as I am considering all the options that I have for this summer's cruising. I already have a 3.8m inflatable kayak (very good to use, but rather heavy and difficult to get aboard), a 2.4m sit-on-top inflatable kayak (light and manageable, but little carrying capacity), and the 1.8m 3D tender (very light, with enough carrying capacity for stores, but impossible to row). I was looking at the heavy duty PVC packrafts from Neris, and it occurred to me that the 3D tender is almost the same in size and weight as one of those, if I take off the thwart, get rid of the rowlock fittings, and put in the seat and backrest from my larger kayak. The internal length is not much greater than my seated length measured from my back to my feet, so I'm sitting either at the bow or at the stern. The bow does not have enough buoyancy to support me, so sitting at the stern and using a kayak paddle, packraft-fashion, is how it has to be. I say all this just to illustrate to the point that everyone, and every mothership, will have a different set of requirements to meet. Mine are not likely to be the same as anyone else's.

  • 08 Apr 2021 09:55
    Reply # 10286599 on 10211344
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    Thank you all for good and sensible comments to the Halibut design. As expected, the focus appears to be on the bowboard’s suitability, or lack of it.

    I’ll try to answer the best I can, but first of all; my main focus on Halibut has been on making a well-behaved and safe rowing tender which is not too difficult to build (read: not impossible for me...). Sailing the thing has second priority  -  I already have a good sailboat, thank you.

    Bow-board and sailing characteristics:
    I don’t know how well it will perform, but I know it has been used, so for short-term use, I think it is worth a try. There is no way I will have a cb. in the cockpit.
    Tracking will of course be non-existent with the board down. However, two of my five boats (Broremann and Frøken Sørensen, FS) were directionally unstable. If I let the tiller go to retie a shoelace or something, we would be heading in a completely different direction when I looked up again. That is why I made the tiller brake for them. With tiller locked, they behaved well. Both FS and Broremann could sail long stretches with the tiller locked. The fact that the Yorkshire coble was towed backwards was only natural, as they were to be hauled ashore stern first anyway, and the flaring transom would not scoop any water under tow.

    As for the board to be awkward to set and retrieve over the bow; I see that one. For a bigger boat, I have drawn a version which can be swung up by the pull of a line, but there is no room that on Halibut. Time will show if it is practical or not, but remember, Halibut is a pram with plenty of beam, freeboard and volume in the bow area, so there is a good chance it may be doable. I reckon that the board and rig will not be erected for sailing in harsh conditions, anyway.

    The size
    of the shown board and rudder may be a bit over the top. I will have a closer look at the Optimist dinghy before settling on the size.

    Plan B:
    In any case, if the bowboard fails to be practical in use, or if it performs badly, there are simple alternatives available; either leeboards or a single daggerboard, fitted at the outside of the boat, like on some Puddle Duck Racers.

    Finally,
    the waters we do our boating in are not the same. In my area there is generally plenty of water underneath us until about 3-5 boatlengths from shore.

    Yes, and remember  - 
    my ‘client’ is myself! To me it is better (more fun) to try and then perhaps fail than not to try at all. Common sense must not become too common...

    Arne                                                                   

    PS to Graeme:
    Twin skegs.
    These are meant for my own use. Our tenders live ashore in the harbour and are dragged up and down the concrete ramp. Twin skegs (with irons on) will act as runners and let us rumble up and down the ramp without hurting the tenders.

    Fixed keel.
    A fixed, shallow and long keel could easily be a Plan C  -  easy enough to fit later.

    Last modified: 08 Apr 2021 11:09 | Anonymous member (Administrator)
  • 08 Apr 2021 09:06
    Reply # 10286444 on 10211344
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    Of course, the bow board would need to be retracted for rowing and towing, but I wouldn't write it off for sailing - its just - how do you get at it without leaning over the bow, and what do you do with it when not sailing?

    I've sort of given up on the internal bow board case idea too - as David points out, the case has to be too high and I guess Arne has already found it doesn't fit very well. I think a leeboard would have to be placed too far aft - and Arne doesn't want a bilge board. So what else is there - a dagger board through the fore deck? Too much windage for leaving it in the up position.

    So here's another idea, very simple - just give it a little bit of keel - 50mm of extra draft is all it would need - a long straight keel starting with a bit of a fore gripe and ending at the stern with a bit more of a skeg than it has at present. Stepping over the side into ankle-deep is not much different to lower-shin-deep. Better for dragging it over the sand - and the extra directional stability for rowing wouldn't go amiss for that little fatty.

    I put a long 6" keel on an old fibreglass 12' clinker I once had, whose keel had worn through by the previous owner dragging it over the sand too many times (a "seabird" sailing dinghy). With the centreboard up, it could sail to windward in 9" of water - not as good to windward as with the centreboard, but good enough to claw your way over a mudbank. Remember Swallow from Swallows and Amazons? I wonder if just a little bit of keel would work good enough on this little dinghy - might even make it better for rowing.

    The next thought, as it is flat bottomed, is to give it twin skegs - but I think not necessary for a tender which is more likely to spend most of its time upside down, and a bit too draggy perhaps, I wouldn't go that far.

    Last modified: 08 Apr 2021 09:23 | Anonymous member (Administrator)
  • 08 Apr 2021 08:30
    Reply # 10286361 on 10211344

    Imagine, if you will, that you have a bow and arrow, and attempt to shoot the arrow the wrong way around, feathers-first. It will immediately try to turn itself through 180˚. As far as I can see, one could not let go of Halibut's tiller for more than a microsecond before it tries to do the same.

    A long time ago, I sailed in Yorkshire Cobles, the fishing boat that has a deep fine bow and a deep rudder. They are excellent for their original task of working off surf beaches, but a bit tricky to handle. They have to be towed stern-first, because the deep bow makes them directionally unstable without the rudder's control.

    I believe that Halibut isn't going to be a practical yacht's tender in that configuration. Just imagine launching off a beach into a bit of a sea, then leaning over the bow of a very small dinghy to rig a bow board, thus putting one's weight so far forward that the boat becomes unsteady laterally, and starts to take wavetops over the bow. I shudder.

    No, the leeboard or bilgeboard is the right choice for a boat that is rowed most of the time. A centreboard or central daggerboard is not good in a boat of this size, unless a solution can be found to stop water slopping up out of the top of the case, to the great discomfiture of the rower.

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  • 08 Apr 2021 02:58
    Reply # 10285490 on 10284854
    Anonymous wrote:

    The hull shape is a little more sophisticated than I think is warranted for such a small boat, though the way you have developed the panels, you will have eliminated much of the difficulty for a builder, so maybe it will not be too difficult to build one. Its key feature and virtue is that midship section and the way it responds to increase in weight.

    Having built a 4 plank dingy of almost the same shape, I would say this one is easier.

    My main criticism is the bow board. No-one else has so far commented on this - maybe it is "the elephant in the room"? This bow board seems to me to be innovation for innovation's sake. I am sure it will work - but why? Perhaps I am striking too soon, before seeing the detail of how it is to be mounted and deployed.

    I am also (I some how said alsa must be linuxing too much) unsure how that would work (I am assuming it would work at least if not how).

    Perhaps in the "half up" position (if it has one) it would give an increase in the waterline length?

    While I have heard the assertion that a rudder increases hull speed before, water line length might properly be called buoyancy length as it seems to be governed by the buoyancy at the ends of the boat. bulbous bows are wider, under water and design for one speed only. I do not think a bow board would allow the bow to drop behind the wave created by the bow board. (googling bow board shows a place for hanging hair bows or a place for building archery bows)

    I was however, looking at Theory for Daggerboard navigation about steering with no swingable rudder but rather adding and removing dagger boards

    Anyway, as I have already built a hull, the rig is what is important to me. I have happily not yet made the DB trunk or mast step/partner and so have a clean sheet (the paper kind) on placement.


  • 07 Apr 2021 22:34
    Reply # 10284854 on 10211344
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    Arne, congratulations on persevering with the dinghy design. I think your little vessel is a thing of beauty, and I anticipate that your rig might prove to be a landmark innovation in junk rig development for small craft.

    I have some criticism though.

    The hull shape is a little more sophisticated than I think is warranted for such a small boat, though the way you have developed the panels, you will have eliminated much of the difficulty for a builder, so maybe it will not be too difficult to build one. Its key feature and virtue is that midship section and the way it responds to increase in weight.

    My main criticism is the bow board. No-one else has so far commented on this - maybe it is "the elephant in the room"? This bow board seems to me to be innovation for innovation's sake. I am sure it will work - but why? Perhaps I am striking too soon, before seeing the detail of how it is to be mounted and deployed.

    Perhaps in the "half up" position (if it has one) it would give an increase in the waterline length?  It seems to me that this bow board will be practical in only a very limited type of coastline - and considering that almost all dinghy tenders (outside of marina use) will need to take shelving beaches or shallow water for most of their working lives, I would like to suggest that you make an alternative conventional version available as part of your design package. 

    Another thing, I can't see the bow board contributing much to directional stability, to put it mildly. It will need to be pretty accurately and firmly mounted, or it will take charge. (My old scow had a board which was floppy in its case, and when motoring or not hard on the wind, every time it flip-flopped the boat would want to take a sheer in a different direction - needed constant attention at the helm!)

    If reverting to oars, I imagine it will need to be fully up. It will probably have too much windage to have an "up position" and I can not see it being especially easy to reach forward over the bow to retrieve it  (and then have to stow it somewhere). 

    Perhaps if it were mounted inside the bow, the case could be an internal part of the structure of the forward buoyancy tank, so that the board can swing up and remain out of the way - or, if a dagger, be accessible from the sitting position inside the dinghy, to be pulled up a bit, quickly, when (not if) it strikes the mud or sand. 

    I am not qualified to comment on leeboards and their variants, never having used one, but can't help wondering if this dinghy, with its conveniently vertical topsides, is asking for a "clip on" external swinging off-centreboard, which can be left in place, or removed at will.  (I mean fore-and-aft swinging, not the conventional "broken wing" swing-out of the true leeboard.)

    I think the "sausage fender" is very well suited to a dinghy which is narrow in the beam, or a little tender (the adjective). However, on this beamy little boat it might not be quite so necessary and will not add anything to its looks. Good safety compromise though, for a sailing dinghy which does not have built-in side buoyancy.

    Of course, the client must have the last say on all these matters. As for myself - I take my hat off and thank you for for putting forward such a courageous,  imaginative and delightful creation. I am looking forward to the next iteration.

    PS Also hoping David will progress his thinking, at least to the "proposal" stage. Much as I like the "pre lim" - it would be good to have a "san ban" also for consideration, as I still think "three planks" is good enough for such a small dinghy.


    pps another afterthought: a side-mounted board would perhaps have to be too far aft and not suit the rig. The more I think about it, if the reason for the bow board is to keep this appendage out of the dinghy and out of the way, a centreboard case right in the bow, while complicating the structure a little, would make sense to me, especially  if the board can swing up into it without needing attention. There is a buoyancy tank there anyway, so not much internal space is lost if the board and its case are cleverly shaped, the case fitting into the tank and under that forward thwart. The little bow board could stay permanently in its case, and just swing out when sailing, the rest of the time out of sight and out of mind. I don't think it needs to be so deep either. Well, that's just my opinion


    Last modified: 08 Apr 2021 07:11 | Anonymous member (Administrator)
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