Another write up by Arne Kverneland

  • 13 Aug 2018 03:13
    Reply # 6534109 on 6527372
    Deleted user
    Anonymous wrote:

    Have we started giving away free pairs of rose tinted spectacles with each JRA magazine, or something? Does no-one else cast a shrewd eye over things and assess where they are satisfactory, and how they can be made better? Or is it just that having been a designer for nearly fifty years, that is my default state? Anyway, you all know what I think about flat barrel-cut panels, and I'm clearly not getting many people to take in and understand the benefits of the short, low-angled yard and how it works, so I'll say no more, and continue to be the only one marching in step.

    You mean this kind of thing? constantly, and when after several hours or days of thought, research, and migraines it turns out to be unworkable, I get grumpy and snap at good friends.

    I enjoyed your thread at boatdesign.net "the design of soft wing sails", all 19 pages of it, although most of it was over my head, less so now then before I read it though :)

    Bill


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    Last modified: 13 Aug 2018 03:14 | Deleted user
  • 13 Aug 2018 00:39
    Reply # 6530995 on 6527372
    Anonymous wrote:

    Have we started giving away free pairs of rose tinted spectacles with each JRA magazine, or something? Does no-one else cast a shrewd eye over things and assess where they are satisfactory, and how they can be made better? Or is it just that having been a designer for nearly fifty years, that is my default state? Anyway, you all know what I think about flat barrel-cut panels, and I'm clearly not getting many people to take in and understand the benefits of the short, low-angled yard and how it works, so I'll say no more, and continue to be the only one marching in step.


    No but it seems you might still be needing your Prozac! :-) Arne's sails deliver a lot of bang for the buck and are simple enough for non professional sail makers to successfully make. Through Arne's efforts, junks with real windward ability have been put on the  map and he has made a very real contribution to the development of the rig. You may not like it but that is your business, don't disparage a successful effort.

    I personally do not care in anyway for the last rig you put on Tystie or for the one you have on Weaverbird... However that does not inspire me to run around bad mouthing your efforts. Each to his own, what works for you and makes you happy is your affair entirely.


    Last modified: 13 Aug 2018 06:53 | Anonymous member
  • 12 Aug 2018 23:41
    Reply # 6529813 on 869421

    David you may well be right, your level of experience is light years ahead of mine. If I ever need to build a new sail I will no doubt look closer at your work. Though given my sewing ability I can’t guarantee the result will be better than I have now.:)

  • 12 Aug 2018 21:36
    Reply # 6527372 on 869421

    Have we started giving away free pairs of rose tinted spectacles with each JRA magazine, or something? Does no-one else cast a shrewd eye over things and assess where they are satisfactory, and how they can be made better? Or is it just that having been a designer for nearly fifty years, that is my default state? Anyway, you all know what I think about flat barrel-cut panels, and I'm clearly not getting many people to take in and understand the benefits of the short, low-angled yard and how it works, so I'll say no more, and continue to be the only one marching in step.

  • 12 Aug 2018 20:22
    Reply # 6525804 on 6498170
    Anonymous wrote:

    "Over the years I have bored you folks sick with telling (bragging?) about my boats and their rigs. I have often been met with phrases like ‘apples and oranges’, ‘horses for courses’, ‘fjord flyers’, ‘over-rigged’ and ‘wrinkles’. I have also been instructed that my ‘2-D barrel only’ way of constructing the sail is not as good as more advanced (= complicated) ways. During later years a new ‘truth’ has been developed: Lower yard angles and shorter yards are more efficient or just ‘better’ than full-length high-peaking yards."

    Are you deliberately misunderstanding, Arne? Lower yard angles and shorter yards reduce stresses and make the sail easier to handle, and easier to set well. They have little to do with speed to windward (either positive or negative), which is only one element in the equation for cruising boats. They have everything to do with making the boat pleasanter and easier to sail.

    You do indeed have the right to make badly constructed sails that look terrible, and to say that you don't care so long as they perform well. Others are concerned with pride in their craftsmanship, and the pleasure of looking at a well made sail.

    What concerns me is that you are teaching first time sailmakers to make bad sails. When it would be better to say up front  "this is the way that I do it - it's not the best, there are better ways, but it's good enough for me". In the case of Pol's sail, it was sewn by an experienced machinist who had never made a sail, but was up for the challenge. Give her instructions on making a good sail, and she could make a good sail. Give her instructions on making a bad sail, and she would make a bad sail. It seems that instruction on how these high peaked sails put quite considerable loads on the peak and throat were lacking, anyway, as Pol has had to make two repairs in the first three weeks of use.


    David, I think you forgot to take your Prosaic ... Arne's sail making methods have been used to make quite a number of very acceptable sails, including his own. I have also made a few sails using his methods and had very acceptable results. Arne's methods make it possible for relatively unskilled people to make an acceptable sail and that is a good thing. There may be a few bad ones, but they were not made by Arne... if you cannot get a respectable sail using Arne's methods, you are not likely to get better results using traditional sail making methods as they are an order of magnitude more difficult.

    Lastly, yard angle is a function of balance, more balance, lower angle, less balance, higher angle. Something that I'm sure you know. There is nothing extreme about Arne's yard angles, all his sails are straight out of the Hassler copy book and are very conservative.


  • 12 Aug 2018 17:45
    Reply # 6522671 on 869421

    In the early 90's I had a flat junk sail that I bought new (origin unknown) from a used sail dealer and had the top cut to PJR shape by a canvas worker neighbor. It helped make my 23 footer a fine family boat despite windward limitations. Eventually I caught bigaboatitis and sold the junk. Coming back to the junk rig and no way to repeat my earlier good fortune, I was faced with making a sail. Figured I would make it flat. I'd read comments about ugly sails that just hung down in calms by some writers the yahoo site where uninformed opinions abound.. Of course I wanted sails that were neat and trim and besides no way could I build a cambered sail. I'm a pretty confident with wood and metal but the idea of building a sail was intimidating. I finally discovered both the flaws of my thinking and amateur method B.

    Making the sail was within my ability but it took the step by step descriptions, drawings and even pictures so generously written up and made available. The sail is all that I hoped for. It preforms very well on all points, sets and reefs easily and looks great. Twice the other day out on the water the rig got complements from instructors of our harbor's sailing club.

    My boat is only 19 ft but relatively heavy with a listed weight of 2000 lbs and a 2 ft draft. It required a higher aspect sail to get sail area along with just the minimum sheet space without a structural addition. I think that helps the sail set well with less loads. Still, if I had more space I think I would have preferred a shorter mast along with its lower AR. Getting the sling point, and setting the yard hauling and throat hauling parrels correct really smooth things out for me and help the sail set right. Enough length in the sheetlets may be important as well.

    I have to say I have been so pleased with my sail and am very thankful for having a sail making method that that I found doable and worked for me.




  • 12 Aug 2018 14:47
    Reply # 6519000 on 869421
    Deleted user
    I'd take either variety of junk rig and be thrilled with it I suspect, I like how both look, ease of manufacture, simplicity, and ridiculous amounts of square footage are all appealing hallmarks of the junk rig.

    The more styles of junk rig there are the more people will find something that ticks all their boxes, which could mean more junk rig conversions, and more people thinking about how to make them better, that's the recipe that created the junk rig in the first place.


    With that said, I'll probably go with an aero junk, at least partly because all the complicated parts are done in wood and not on a sewing machine :)

    Bill

    Last modified: 12 Aug 2018 15:36 | Deleted user
  • 12 Aug 2018 14:44
    Reply # 6518951 on 869421

    Another way of assembling sail panels and pockets - like Arne's method, this can be done in a small room, but with a much better result.

  • 12 Aug 2018 11:32
    Reply # 6514980 on 869421

    When I decided to go JR on Redwing there was very little information out that was easy to find. I had read Annie's book and soon after I borrowed a copy PJR from a friend. I scoured the net for information, photos and videos and I discovered the Yahoo group. By that stage I was leaning towards the Fennix rig because I liked the fan sail. It may have been Arne who pointed out the problems with the rig I don't know but I then discovered Arne's work on cambered sails. Victor Winterhun designed a rig for me based on Arne's work and using Arne's methods, apart from batten sleeves (wishing I had used them) I built my sail. It has given me some very spirited sailing and a few heart in mouth moments to when I was overpowerd...don't forget to reef.

    I like my sail.

    Since then there has been a lot of work done, split rig sails, David Tyler's fan sails and wing sails. And I have really enjoyed reading about David's sail R&D, not to mention his travels.

    There are still people more than happy with there HM flat cut sails but it was Arne who came up with a simple method of putting camber into panels

    As for damage, I broke a yard but that was rot and a built in weakness and I've slightly bent an alloy batten but that was being over canvassed.

  • 12 Aug 2018 11:18
    Reply # 6514688 on 869421
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    I have read variations of this proverb, many times:

    If it looks good, it is good.

    This was often said in connection with the Spitfire WW2 fighter, in contrast to the more angular Hurricane. However, the sweet lines of the Spit came at a price: It was terribly difficult to mass-produce, much unlike the Hurricane.

    I guess I am in the Hurricane league (with an uprated engine, please). Simplicity of construction and servicing is important to me, as well as performance.

    Back to junk sails:
    It appears that David Tyler and I disagree about two main points; the planform and the way the batten panels should be sewn together.

    I simply think my version of the H-M planform, with its 3-panel top section, is great. It gives the longest luff length for a given mast height, and it reefs well. I have no structural problems with it, and will stick to it.

    As for my preferred way of sewing the panels to each other (Amateur Method B, see Chapter 5), I have mostly argued for it because it is so simple to make, but there is more to it than that:

    ·         This method does away with the need for a big space for sewing it. If the sail were to be put together the ‘proper’, sailmaker’s way, one would need at least one batten length table (or floor) space on each side of the sewing machine. In practice, this means that many people would have to move outside or rent/borrow a bigger place for the job.

    ·         The Amateur Method B hides the panel joining seam from sunlight and chafe, so this will not fail, as long as a proper boltrope is fitted around the sail.

    ·         If a batten pocket is to be replaced for some reason, this can be done by simply ripping the single (zigzag) batten pocket seam, and a new pocket can be fitted. This can again be done without having to roll up half the sail to let it pass under the arm of the sewing machine: Only the new batten pocket is passed under the sewing machine.

    Simple to make, simple to maintain, simple as that.
    However, that would not have been good enough, even for me, if the Amateur Method B had resulted in a weak sail or a sail that didn’t perform. My experience is that the sail keeps together very well  -  and performance-wise I and Ingeborg touch our forelock to no one.

    It is a fact, though, that the sail may look bad along the battens, at times. It is worst when spotting the sail in light winds, when on the port tack, and looking on its port side (photo below, left). It is the way it is. It doesn’t do any harm to the all-important cambered panels, but it may make some eyes sore. If that look is unbearable to a wannabe amateur sailmaker, then he or she should consider switching to some sailmaker’s method instead. Maybe I should put a warning about it in Chapter 5?

    Conclusion:
    I stand by my claim that my sails are good, since they both perform well and last well  -  even if some details look very untidy, at times.

    Arne



    Last modified: 12 Aug 2018 20:49 | Anonymous member (Administrator)
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