Another write up by Arne Kverneland

  • 13 Aug 2018 21:53
    Reply # 6557913 on 6557503
    Annie wrote:

    And I have to break the news to Slieve, Arne and David: some of us just aren't good enough sailors to get the most out of our boats anyway, but we do enjoy sailing something that we find fun, easy to handle and aesthetically pleasing.  

    But Annie, this isn't news to me! This is exactly where I am with Weaverbird. I don't know whether she's "faster" or "better" because I have nothing to compare her to. I only know for sure that I enjoy sailing her because she's fun, easy to handle and aesthetically pleasing (to me, at any rate). And if I can quote Pol, "... but WEAVERBIRD looks terrific. Very neat and totally effective." 
  • 13 Aug 2018 21:40
    Reply # 6557655 on 869421

    David, do either you or I have the right to criticise Arne's work and say that it can be improved? I think not. He has developed and published a very easy way of building a rig which has worked well not only for himself, but also for his readers, and which should be encouraged. If we have questions then we should ask them as such and not claim greater expertise, because none of us can rightly do that.

    Your paragraph which I quoted appears to be written to suggest that you have knowledge and expertise above the rest of us mere mortals, yet I feel that that should be challenged. I am aware of the 'pressures' having spent 5 years in academia and then been employed as a design engineer in one of the top projects in this country, and am well aware that even then we did not criticise each others work, but tried to learn from each other. At best, in the junk rig world we are all experimenters, and in reality none of us are in a position to criticise each others experimenters.

    Yes, I am 'up in arms' as it would appear to me to be bad form to fire and leave a critical broadside in print and then turn round and say that we are really just friends. Yes, it is time to drop this dialogue, but question if the criticisms should be left in print.

    Slieve.

  • 13 Aug 2018 21:33
    Reply # 6557503 on 869421

    Look at the photos below.  Wouldn't it be boring if we were all sailing with the same JR - we'd end up being as bland as pointy boats.

    And I have to break the news to Slieve, Arne and David: some of us just aren't good enough sailors to get the most out of our boats anyway, but we do enjoy sailing something that we find fun, easy to handle and aesthetically pleasing.  So we may not actually, be agonising over some of the things that maybe we should find important, but are saying 'I like the looks of that' instead.  Wrinkles and all.  (I hope I don't get dismissed out of hand for a few wrinkles!!)

    3 files
  • 13 Aug 2018 21:19
    Reply # 6557205 on 869421
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    Ladies and gentlemen

    The conclusion of my last write-up might be called bold, big-mouthed and even cocky and provoking.  Still, I stand by it and let it be a challenge to you. Luckily I didn’t bet on it, so if (when) someone comes up with a faster JR, at least I don’t have to eat my hat.

    Good luck, everyone!

    Arne


  • 13 Aug 2018 19:49
    Reply # 6555263 on 6552337
    Slieve wrote:

    Oh dear! I cannot believe what I'm reading. For years you have felt free to criticize other's efforts at experimenting, David, but now have risen to a new level. 

    Oh dear, Slieve! I wonder why it is that you're up in arms whenever I see something that could be improved, and have the temerity to say so? Yes, of course I criticise. All through my life as a designer, I have had to present my work, explain it and defend it against robust and searching criticism from my peers. Academics are used to working this way, too. I seek, expect and welcome such criticism, as it spurs me on to improve that which needs to be improved. If the work is good, it will stand up to examination. If it's not, it won't.

    Could you just check for me that you're fully up to speed on what's been said here recently, having read though:

    http://www.junkrigassociation.org/yachtclubbar/6530652#6540130

    http://www.junkrigassociation.org/general_forum/6346955#6554873

  • 13 Aug 2018 17:40
    Reply # 6552337 on 869421

    David T wrote - “Have we started giving away free pairs of rose tinted spectacles with each JRA magazine, or something? Does no-one else cast a shrewd eye over things and assess where they are satisfactory, and how they can be made better? Or is it just that having been a designer for nearly fifty years, that is my default state? Anyway, you all know what I think about flat barrel-cut panels, and I'm clearly not getting many people to take in and understand the benefits of the short, low-angled yard and how it works, so I'll say no more, and continue to be the only one marching in step.”

    Oh dear! I cannot believe what I'm reading. For years you have felt free to criticize other's efforts at experimenting, David, but now have risen to a new level. It's time to take off the polarizing lenses and replace them with clear view lenses. It is true that you have been experimenting with rigs for nearly 50 years, but from all that work it is difficult to see any obvious line of development followed or any resulting design and write up that anyone new to the rig would be advised to adopt.

    Realising the weaknesses of the Bermudan rig, and after examining other rigs, Arne has taken the Hasler/ Mcleod (HM) rig and developed it through hinged battens and then cambered panels to a level that he has written up to provide an inexperienced amateur with all that is needed to build an efficient rig by the simplest methods. Such work is to be applauded, not criticized.

    As for being the only one marching in step, in step with whom? Speaking from memory the new 'truth' of lower yard angles and shorter yards started when the split rig appeared, which also encouraged the use of broadseam. The complete lower shorter yard package included the tapering of the luff to balance the the forces from the taper of the leech to further reduce the stresses in the rig, so perhaps you're not quite in step yet.

    We are all getting older and set in our ways, but that can be no excuse for such unwarranted criticism.

    I may not be 100% happy with Arne's write up, and that is why I have been slow to respond to him. Any criticisms I may have will go directly to him in private so that we both can learn from the experience, and hopefully not embarrass either of us.

    Slieve.


  • 13 Aug 2018 11:25
    Reply # 6544319 on 6543847
    Gary wrote:
    David wrote:

    Another way of assembling sail panels and pockets - like Arne's method, this can be done in a small room, but with a much better result.


    Actually I like that. Not sure if I could fit them to my completed sail though it could be worth a try. The webbing loops work on my sail but it's not as tidy as pockets. Am I correct that the pockets have a built in back to them David?
    No, I screw through eyelets into the batten at both ends.
    Last modified: 13 Aug 2018 11:27 | Anonymous member
  • 13 Aug 2018 11:02
    Reply # 6543847 on 6518951
    Anonymous wrote:

    Another way of assembling sail panels and pockets - like Arne's method, this can be done in a small room, but with a much better result.


    Actually I like that. Not sure if I could fit them to my completed sail though it could be worth a try. The webbing loops work on my sail but it's not as tidy as pockets. Am I correct that the pockets have a built in back to them David?
  • 13 Aug 2018 09:43
    Reply # 6542219 on 869421

    Well said Jami.

    Actually, I think it is great, and a real privilege to be able to follow some of these debates, by experienced and accomplished people - with diverse ideas - and willing to put their views in a frank manner, with no offence meant or taken. Hats off to David and Arne for an interesting exchange. I liked Arne's Spitfire/Hurricaine analogy and I enjoyed David's mock-grumpy retreat - if there were a prize for best forum contributions it would be difficult to choose between these two generous fellows. 

    Two clever people chasing slightly different goals, and we get to benefit from the clash of ideas. Thanks guys for what I think is a good and honest standard of debate, with passion but not rancour. 


    Addition: I posted the above before reading the "peace pipe" thread, and - after reading that - I can only say again - this forum is outstanding.

    Last modified: 13 Aug 2018 09:55 | Anonymous member
  • 13 Aug 2018 07:12
    Reply # 6539047 on 869421

    Peace and love, everyone! One of the most enjoyable things in this forum (with the enourmous amount of experience, knowledge and techical help) is the respectful discussion even when people’s views differ significantly. This is rare in the big, bad world of internet. Let’s not lose this, please.

    Last modified: 13 Aug 2018 07:13 | Anonymous member
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