A newcomer's intro

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  • 02 Jan 2017 19:44
    Reply # 4497052 on 4474781
    Deleted user

    I am reading all the documentation and I'm also going thru all the topics on the forums. I start to have a better understanding of the rig. I have a copy of PJR but it is on the boat and I'm 1500kms away. At 50€ a copy I cannot justify buying it again. So thanks for putting all this information out there.

  • 27 Dec 2016 21:21
    Reply # 4478680 on 4478175
    Anonymous member (Administrator)
    Karl Bitz wrote:
     
    I guess what I have to do now is to build a tiny model of the rig to understand how everythings works...

    Before starting for real, could I suggest you have a look at this page?

    Since you are new to JR; it may be an idea to start with "Junk Rig for Beginners", then, Chapter 2, 3, 4, and 5 of "The Cambered Panel Junk Rig" may be useful, and also the two-part write-up, called "A white sail for Edmond Dantes". Edmond D's sail is in the same size range as the last one I drew up for you.

    Good luck!

    Arne

    PS: I am pleased to tell you that my new sail cover for Ingeborg, with 6mm anchor chain sewn into the side-hems, stayed put while "Urd" was storming along.


    Last modified: 27 Dec 2016 21:25 | Anonymous member (Administrator)
  • 27 Dec 2016 16:37
    Reply # 4478257 on 4478161
    Karl Bitz wrote: Sheet. This is a major concern and I'd like to keep the sheet where it is now as we also have a bimini shade just aft of the steering pedestral. From the photos you posted, you seem to have a steep sheet angle on Weaverbird ?
    The upper part of the sheet makes a minimum angle of 10 degrees with the leech, when the sail is amidships and the boat is head to wind, and a greater angle when sailing. This is satisfactory, so long as the battens end flush with the leech and there are no other stiff protrusions on the leech to snag the sheet.
  • 27 Dec 2016 16:06
    Reply # 4478175 on 4477587
    Deleted user
    Arne Kverneland wrote:

    Karl.

    That wide port hole in the fore end of the cabin was a surprise. Now I have tried to design a rig for a mast which goes through the fore deck. I have made ample room for a 26cm mast there, but If you can get that 22cm mast which David suggests, that would be better. Just put the mast at the aft end of the fore deck.

    The moving of the mast had quite some effect of the AR of the sail, but I still think it should work as it is within the limits of sails I have made and used myself.

    See for yourself.

    Arne

    (The storm Urd is about to abate in Stavanger and the glass is raising, so I guess i can finally have a walk before hitting the pillow. It will be interesting to see if my new sail cover on Ingeborg's sail has stayed put, tomorrow)


    Arne, 

    That will be much easier and cheaper to fabricate, also for some obscure reason I find the AR closer to 2.0 more pleasing to the eyes.
    I've shown your sketches to my wife and she is really pleased with this one. She reckons that the boat looks much better with the JR.
    Having the mast forward as you put it now will also give us an easier access to the forepeak
    So... we agreed to start the conversion in May when we will get back to the boat.

    We're currently in North Germany (boat is in France) and while we didn't get the storm you experienced in Norway we had some pretty strong gusts. I was watching it all on Windytv . That's a pretty cool website.

    I guess what I have to do now is to build a tiny model of the rig to understand how everythings works...
    Last modified: 27 Dec 2016 18:06 | Deleted user
  • 27 Dec 2016 15:43
    Reply # 4478161 on 4477411
    Deleted user
    David Tyler wrote:

    Mast. I'd be looking for an agent in France for Nedal, who can make conical tapered aluminium tubes up to the size you'll need. I used one of their 220mm diameter tubes as the mast on Tystie, carrying a sail of 54 sq m, but the AR was low, and the overall length was only 12m. However, I think you'll be OK with this diameter and an overall length of 13m carrying a 50 sq m sail.

    Battens. Carbon fibre will give you the lightest, strongest and stiffest battens, but at a price. Just comparing GRP and CFRP available from the source I use, https://www.carbonfibreprofiles.com/, carbon is three times as expensive. It depends how deep your pockets are. The larger the sail, the more desirable it is to reduce weight, but GRP is acceptable. I'd choose 50mm OD x 46mm ID for a 5.5m batten in this size of sail.

    Cloth. When I've experienced breakdown of the sailcloth, after many ocean miles, it's been near the leech of the lowest panels. This is where  there is some fluttering and flapping that doesn't occur where there is more tension in the sail, higher up. To counter this, I add weight in this region, not subtract it by using lighter cloth. In a 50 sq m sail that is intended for long term cruising, I would not use less than 8oz/sq yd - Weathermax 80 or Clipper Canvas 7.2 US measure (= 9oz/sq yd) (still available, I think direct from Heathcoat, but if not, Weathermax 80 is right for this sail).

    Sheet. I would be happy with the sheet blocks being just forward of the steering pedestal, so long as the battens are no longer than 5.5m, and so long as the top sheeted batten is extended aft of the leech (it's the top span that tends to get caught behind the upper battens, the lower spans are better behaved). Putting the sheet blocks on the pulpit would have the sheet sweeping dangerously overhead as you stand at the wheel.


    David, 

    Thank you for all this links and info you provided. It helps to have a better overview of what we will be looking for and how much our conversion will cost.

    Battens
    I think we will go with GRP to start with. We don't mind paying extra money if the advantages are greater. However at 3 times the cost I guess Carbon Fiber won't be worth it.

    Cloth It makes sense. Whatever cloth, we wont use lighter than 8oz/yd2 then. There is a big sailmaker 100 meters from where the boat is and I will ask for cloth availability and quotes.

    Sheet. This is a major concern and I'd like to keep the sheet where it is now as we also have a bimini shade just aft of the steering pedestral. From the photos you posted, you seem to have a steep sheet angle on Weaverbird



  • 26 Dec 2016 22:52
    Reply # 4477587 on 4474781
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    Karl.

    That wide port hole in the fore end of the cabin was a surprise. Now I have tried to design a rig for a mast which goes through the fore deck. I have made ample room for a 26cm mast there, but If you can get that 22cm mast which David suggests, that would be better. Just put the mast at the aft end of the fore deck.

    The moving of the mast had quite some effect of the AR of the sail, but I still think it should work as it is within the limits of sails I have made and used myself.

    See for yourself.

    Arne

    (The storm Urd is about to abate in Stavanger and the glass is raising, so I guess i can finally have a walk before hitting the pillow. It will be interesting to see if my new sail cover on Ingeborg's sail has stayed put, tomorrow)


    Last modified: 26 Dec 2016 22:52 | Anonymous member (Administrator)
  • 26 Dec 2016 19:41
    Reply # 4477411 on 4474781

    Mast. I'd be looking for an agent in France for Nedal, who can make conical tapered aluminium tubes up to the size you'll need. I used one of their 220mm diameter tubes as the mast on Tystie, carrying a sail of 54 sq m, but the AR was low, and the overall length was only 12m. However, I think you'll be OK with this diameter and an overall length of 13m carrying a 50 sq m sail.

    Battens. Carbon fibre will give you the lightest, strongest and stiffest battens, but at a price. Just comparing GRP and CFRP available from the source I use, https://www.carbonfibreprofiles.com/, carbon is three times as expensive. It depends how deep your pockets are. The larger the sail, the more desirable it is to reduce weight, but GRP is acceptable. I'd choose 50mm OD x 46mm ID for a 5.5m batten in this size of sail.

    Cloth. When I've experienced breakdown of the sailcloth, after many ocean miles, it's been near the leech of the lowest panels. This is where  there is some fluttering and flapping that doesn't occur where there is more tension in the sail, higher up. To counter this, I add weight in this region, not subtract it by using lighter cloth. In a 50 sq m sail that is intended for long term cruising, I would not use less than 8oz/sq yd - Weathermax 80 or Clipper Canvas 7.2 US measure (= 9oz/sq yd) (still available, I think direct from Heathcoat, but if not, Weathermax 80 is right for this sail).

    Sheet. I would be happy with the sheet blocks being just forward of the steering pedestal, so long as the battens are no longer than 5.5m, and so long as the top sheeted batten is extended aft of the leech (it's the top span that tends to get caught behind the upper battens, the lower spans are better behaved). Putting the sheet blocks on the pulpit would have the sheet sweeping dangerously overhead as you stand at the wheel.

  • 26 Dec 2016 18:20
    Reply # 4477292 on 4477041
    Deleted user

    Arne Kverneland wrote:

    After having traced the profile of the MK XI, Bm rig and all, I compared it with the original rig. It appears to just have had the tail stretched. The rig wasn’t made bigger. As you can see, I traced the mainsail and the working jib, and it is the same as the early Mk. It appears to me that Sailboatdata.com has used the working sail area of the early models and the Main plus Genoa 1 SA on the Mk XI.

    So I guess 50m2 will be enough then.

    Arne Kverneland wrote:

    If I were to only potter up and down the coast during the summer season, I would choose the tallest rig. However, if I had oceans crossing ambitions, I would go for the lower one. For lightwind coastal work, I could then add a light jib, no more than 15sqm, set on a spectra stay (to a short bowsprit-cum-anchor roller). With both a halyard and a downhaul for it lead aft to the cockpit, one would stay in control.

    Funny you mentionned that. My grand father gave me a 10m2 light jib that he had laying in his garage. I have 2 attachement points on the bow roller that I could use.

    Arne Kverneland wrote:
    PS: Would there be any problems with planting the mast where I have indicated? 

    I don't see much of a problem placing the mast where you did other than increasing the amount of work required. There is a porthole that will need to be removed and covered. Placing it 10-20 cm forward on deck will simplify the fabrication of the mast partners, might simplify the lines layout and I could look at the mast from the porthole but I wonder whether having a mast that forward would offset the balance? The other solutions would be to place it in lieu of the hatch or between the hatch and the porthole (making the porthole pretty much useless from inside) but this will mean a higher AR so we will be back to square one.

    Not my boat but have a look at this listing to give you an idea, mine is the same with the windlass more forward. Nic32 listing


    Anyway a big thank you for your drawings, I've got the feeling that the Nic32 is looking better with the junk rig!
    Last modified: 26 Dec 2016 18:23 | Deleted user
  • 26 Dec 2016 16:04
    Reply # 4477190 on 4477116
    Anonymous member (Administrator)
    Karl Bitz wrote:Here is a drawing of the boat layered with Arne's sketch. A bit messy with the old rig but I'll try to remove that.
    Will I be able to keep my main sheet where it is now or does it need to move well aft? Is having a steep angle of the sheet a problem when tacking?
    Link

    A steep sheeting angle is generally not a good thing on JR, but even worse is the short sheeting distance. I suggest you aim for a sheeting point at the transom, or on the pushpit.

    Arne

  • 26 Dec 2016 15:30
    Reply # 4477116 on 4474781
    Deleted user
    Here is a drawing of the boat layered with Arne's sketch. A bit messy with the old rig but I'll try to remove that.
    Will I be able to keep my main sheet where it is now or does it need to move well aft? Is having a steep angle of the sheet a problem when tacking?
    Link
    Last modified: 26 Dec 2016 15:36 | Deleted user
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