Modern Junk Class Design

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  • 03 Nov 2014 13:32
    Reply # 3139439 on 3134033
    Dear Paul,

    Seems you have well & truly got the experimentation bug - to the good of all us armchair theorists! (that's me not Arne!)

    Why not continue the concept and have a full 2 sided sail.  The part behind the mast is unconnected to the wishbone, so the windward side curves in to the lee side? 

    Even as you show, the aft part of the nose could swing free toward the mast.

    Keep up the good work, Mark


  • 03 Nov 2014 11:06
    Reply # 3139397 on 3134033

    For what it's worth, I'd stay away from a wingsail for a one design class from a commercial point of view; Beneteau are already well down that road.

    If I were designing a one design I'd take a leaf out of the French racing scene.  A Boat of about 9m with canting keel and daggerboards.  I'd use a cambered panel junk rig.  Carbon mast and battens with dyneema running rigging, state of the art sailcloth etc..... and I'd make it a BIG sail.  The mini-transat class carry around 40 sq/m on a 6.5m hull... which is why they can reach 15kts downwind.  Scale that up to a 9m boat and you've got an exciting downwind flyer..... and it still fits in a container for shipping.  The mast tilted forward and you have a distinctive looking boat that can be powered up to really fly off the wind.

    Peter

     

  • 02 Nov 2014 20:42
    Reply # 3139141 on 3134033

    Thanks Arne, yes your sketch is spot on! It was a possible logical thing to try since I already had the wishbone battens which are the basis of many wing-sail designs. The camber' of the overall wishbone will be less than my present mainsail but on Miranda the overall sail area will increase so I should come out of the equation much the same for performance. Except I should be able to point higher without the jib stalling. For a dedicated wing one can simply increase the length of the cross-batten to increase the overall camber. 

    Like you, I mistrust anything mechanical on sails and this could be a simple alternative for producing drive. On Miranda with its mast position this may well upset the jib/main balance ratio but I am moving all my cross rods to behind the mast instead of in front and so to counter any possible problems I am fitting a luff-haul so I can swing the whole rig back to re-adjust the balance. Watch this space!

    Paul

  • 02 Nov 2014 12:10
    Reply # 3138999 on 3134033
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    Paul,
    if I got it right, then your proposed wing section should look something like this. I like the idea of making a tackable wing with no mechanical hinges, just the stiff wishbone, ABCD. The tacking main section (EBC on this tack) should touch the wishbone a bit forward of B and thus close the gap. This should give a smooth wing on the leeside, all the way from the blunt leading edge to the leech.

    The question is how much damage the hollow aft of BD does to the airflow on the weather site of the sail. After all it has to be about ‘two cambers’ wide, so there must be some drag from it.

    Below your section is the section of a Ljungstrøm sail. Ljungstrøm created the important round leading edge and smooth leeside by rotating the mast so that the mast track was pointing forward. He was much aware of the turbulence behind the mast on the weather side. His conclusion was that due to the much lower airspeed on this side, the turbulence would do little damage. In practice, Ljungstrøm’s sails were more close-winded than the Bermuda rigs (sloops, mainsail and jibs) of those days (1930s).

    I think you have come up with a very interesting idea  -   good luck!

    Cheers, Arne

     

    Last modified: 02 Nov 2014 20:58 | Anonymous member (Administrator)
  • 02 Nov 2014 12:10
    Reply # 3138998 on 3134033
    Anonymous

    Thanks

    Ash

  • 02 Nov 2014 00:48
    Reply # 3138848 on 3134033

    Hi Ash, I hope to make a complete set of 'fish-tail' battens next year sometime. Meanwhile if you look up my AeroJunk you will see that I have wishbone battens and inside them a separate jib and mainsail.  On each tack the mainsail blows 'inside out' and follows the leeward side batten. This present experiment will replace the 'self-tacking' jib with an external wrap-round jib that overlaps the mainsail by about 30%. So on each tack the sail(s) on the leeward side will be continuous. On the windward side there will be a hollow where the jib leech stops. This will produce some turbulence on the windward side that should curl back into the hollow space allowing the outer wind to flow over and continue. Meanwhile the leeward side will be smooth and fast.

    It sounds weird but I see no reason why it will not work. Then next year I will make a new set of fishtail battens and this new wrap-round jib will be the front half of the new sail. Then I just need to make a tail section.

    Tell me if that is enough for your experiment or if you need more.

    Cheers, Paul

  • 01 Nov 2014 10:24
    Reply # 3138545 on 3137745
    Deleted user
    Paul McKay wrote:

    John, I admire your ideas and hope they come to fruition. I am experimenting with a soft wingsail at the moment. I have almost finished making the sail but as it is winter it may be a month or two before I have a chance to try it properly. Whether good or bad I will post the results on the wingsail forum and if good then a full account in the magazine. 

    Paul

    Hi Paul and John,

    Your plans are exciting John, are you thinking along the lines of a flat bottomed - displacement type hull, for  round the cans and river / coastal use or a hull with deeper 'V' for a comfier ride in the rough?

    Paul, I am putting together a Test Rig to make simultaneous comparisons over the winter, between sail panels measuring 2m x 0.5m. They will be flat, Cambered Panel as per Arne, Split Junk as per Slieve and a Wingsail- a Batten and Cross Section of a wing  as per David.

    Can you  let me have a sketch or a  photo or two of your Soft wingsail so far or even a few dimensions to enable me to make a suitably sized panel?  

    I look forward to reading your eventual post in the Wingsail forum.

    I saw your 'fishtail' idea in Technical Illustrations - is your current sail a development of that?

    Ash

    Last modified: 01 Nov 2014 10:31 | Deleted user
  • 31 Oct 2014 16:00
    Reply # 3138128 on 3134033
    Thanks for sharing Paul. I have a sail maker in China working with me. We can do the experiment also. John
  • 31 Oct 2014 00:19
    Reply # 3137745 on 3134033

    John, I admire your ideas and hope they come to fruition. I am experimenting with a soft wingsail at the moment. I have almost finished making the sail but as it is winter it may be a month or two before I have a chance to try it properly. Whether good or bad I will post the results on the wingsail forum and if good then a full account in the magazine. 

    Paul

  • 30 Oct 2014 14:48
    Reply # 3137338 on 3134033
    David, You're right it's a junk for the people. I have been racing round the cans in my 28 feet Impala for years and never tired of it. I will pay attention to the budget to make sure that she's affordable. I still want to explore into the possibilities of soft wing sail for a while as a modern version of the Junk Rig, because Chinese always like new ideas and won't appreciate their own culture.
    Last modified: 30 Oct 2014 14:52 | Anonymous member
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