Yachting World 5 tonner -- possible conversion

  • 04 Feb 2025 15:44
    Reply # 13458862 on 13457716

    Graeme, thank you for your input. It is very encouraging, especially if I can use the original mast position. At the moment is has a sort of rubber boot to seal it to the deck.

    Sorry about quoting, I haven't quite got my head around how to reply to an individual post.

    As I mentioned, I'm a beginner to all this, learning fast but still don't know the basics such as what balance means and how to work out even the height of the mast. Thank you for the info, I will look at Amlina Mk 2.
    As you say, a season with the existing rig will be important to get the feel of her, then next winter start in earnest. I should be able to measure the sail when we get a few dry days and the ground dries up a bit. The spars should be easy, providing I have a tape measure long enough for the boom!

    Thanks again.

  • 04 Feb 2025 05:33
    Reply # 13458721 on 13458055
    Arne Kverneland wrote:

    Now I have found the CLR with and without rudder by cutting out and balancing the underwater profile one a ruler. The lead looks to be generous, as it should be on boats with full keels. There is room for shifting the sail aft if necessary.
    A.


    (see Arne's sketches Section 8-26)

    That is exactly what I had in mind, Arne.  It looks good to me.  I love Arion II, but admit that this boat would also suit me, even though it has a lot less interior volume.  I fell in love with Tarmin as a boy.
  • 02 Feb 2025 18:05
    Reply # 13458055 on 13457716
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    Now I have found the CLR with and without rudder by cutting out and balancing the underwater profile one a ruler. The lead looks to be generous, as it should be on boats with full keels. There is room for shifting the sail aft if necessary.
    A.


    (see Arne's sketches Section 8-26)

  • 02 Feb 2025 10:46
    Reply # 13457950 on 13457716
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    Here is a quick first shot at drawing a JR.
    Now, I am not perfectly sure of the boat’s length. So far, I have landed on 24.5’.
    I have drawn the CE above the forward end of the cabin.
    As for original SA, I have no idea, and not of the real displacement and ballast either, so this is more an illustration than a serious sailplan.
    Anyway, have a look.

    Arne


    ( check Arne's Sketches, Section 8-25)


  • 02 Feb 2025 09:43
    Reply # 13457946 on 13457716

    A friend of mine, the late John Sowden, sailed around the world three times singlehanded on his Yachting World 5-tonner, Tarmin.  His boat had a bowsprit when he bought it, a common addition I believe to improve balance, as they have large mainsails.  The split junk rig might work well with the mast through the foehatch, which is where I think it should go even with a standard junk rig that has about 20-25% balance.  If you have a moderately high aspect ratio, I think you'd find the geometric CE of a standard junk sail is further forward than that of the bermudan sloop version.  Here are some photos of Tarmin.  Click on the images to see them full size in my photo album.  The last photo was taken in 1986, on the day that Tarmin arrived in St Lucia, West Indies, after a very long passage from Durban, South Africa.

  • 02 Feb 2025 08:55
    Reply # 13457944 on 13457716
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    (Andrew, You don't need to re-post the previous post)

    Plausible case for a possible SJR on the original mast position.

    No measurements taken here, this is purely a "thought experiment".

    Extrapolating from the drawing below (because I can't find the sail plan) it looks to me like maybe a 3/4 rig sloop with (no bowsprit) and a very small foretriangle.

    (1) A rough diagram showing roughly where the centre of area might be.

    (2) a SJR superimposed with centre of area roughly matching.

    The mast position comes out roughly where the original mast is placed. (If anything, the mast looks slightly too far forward!) This is an unusual case but my gut feeling is, when you get all the proper measurements and draw up something a bit more accurately, that a 33% balance SJR will have a mast placement within mm of where your mast is currently placed. That would mean no interior changes needed at all except beefing up the knees and partners, new partners to accommodate the larger diameter mast. Reconverting to the original rig would be simple. The Amiina Mk2 sail shown here is designed by Slieve McGalliard, you would be advised to discuss this with Slieve, who is very helpful and who also has DIY notes in the same archive as Arne. That rig is well proven and very well behaved. Alternatively, Arne once showed me a very interesting SJR variant he thought of, with a higher yard-angle and slightly more sail area for the same mast height, which has not yet been tried.

    If it turns out that a balance of less than 33% is needed, to make the centres of area match up, then there would be little point in splitting the sail and Arne has a range of well-proven contiguous (unsplit) Johanna-type options.

    It looks as though the diagram below had a sail plan which has been truncated, maybe it can be found, or maybe you can measure up your spars and sails and make a more accurate sail plan drawing yourself. As a last resort you may be able to find the geometric centre of the underwater hull (the CLR) and by a bit of black magic work out where the sail should be placed, but working off the original sail design would be simpler. Having said all that, if you had a season sailing with the original rig (or could make contact with other owners) you could find out how well balanced on the helm the vessel is, as designed, and work from there. 

    This is one of the most interesting conversion propositions I think, with that fractional rig and very small fore-triangle. I look forward to seeing what Arne and/or Slieve might have to say about that.

    1


    2


    Last modified: 02 Feb 2025 09:07 | Anonymous member (Administrator)
  • 02 Feb 2025 07:38
    Reply # 13457938 on 13457846
    Anonymous wrote:
    Andrew wrote:
    Anonymous wrote:

    I would look into installing a modern in-boom Bermudan reefing system and maybe adding another smaller roller-reefed jib (cutter rig) before you go hacking up a classic boat like that, she looks magnificent. Or... how about a junkette main and leave the mast where it is and keep a smaller foresail, you probably won't mind slowing down a bit. If it doesn't work you haven't screwed up a lovely classic boat, you can revert to the original rig. 

    Thanks, I totally agree. I did say in my first post "Would it be sacrilege to mess about with such a classic yacht?" However, my thinking is that I can probably make a frame to fit into the forward hatch and step the mast below on what is now the heads. That way I won't have to cut the boat at all. I would, of course, keep the original mast and boom and sails in a safe place. I haven't sailed her yet but I imagine she's going to be quite a handful.

    Andrew,

    I think your idea makes sense. Are you able to produce a profile view of the vessel, with some dimensions on it?
    That would allow some of us who happen to like to sketch sailplans, to have a closer look at it.



    Cheers,
    Arne
    Arne, thank you for your interest. As mentioned in another post, I haven't got a feel for the vessel yet, never been on the water and she's 3 times the weight of anything I've had before. Also, the boats in the yard are so tightly packed that you can't even walk completely round them. I think it will make sense to get her launched, have a bit of a shakedown and get some sort of feel for how she behaves. I don't even know whether I qualify for a mooring until the middle of February. Mind you, I am going to do my best, over the next couple of weeks, to take measurements and try to find more information so I will then be most grateful for any advice and suggestions. Thanks again.
  • 02 Feb 2025 07:28
    Reply # 13457936 on 13457858
    Anonymous wrote:

    Here's my tuppence worth. The most excellent thing about a junk rig is not just the ease of reefing and handing the sail, but the complete elimination of jibs, staysails etc. There is simply nothing needed to do when when tacking other than put your coffee down somewhere it won't spill and just steer onto the next course, no sheeting of flapping jibs and you hardly even lose way. This is one of the reasons for these impressive GPS track records of tacking up a narrow channel. which we have been seeing recently on the forum. It is an understatement to say that a junk rig is almost as good as a bermudan rig upwind. In a confined channel it is far superior, which is why junk rigged boats are almost the only vessels you ever see tacking up a channel these days.

    You could do a proper junk rig conversion in such a way that you could always go back to the original rig, not that you ever will, but if perhaps it helps resale at some later point. I think it is wise to keep this in mind, but in the meantime don't compromise. (I have to disagree a little with Jan, here)

    I can't find a sail plan drawing to be sure of the following, but here is what it looks like. You need the mast to be near to the original mast position, or be able to the mast forward to the next bulkhead position, because you will want some decent knees or a beefed up bulkhead to support the deck and partners, which will bear the loading of the free standing mast. It looks as though the fore-triangle is very small on this sail plan (from what little I can find) and it is possible that you might be in the rare situation where a high-balance (33%) sail might just have a geometric centre (centre of area) which matches the centre of area of the bermudan rig. That would suggest your best bet would be a split junk rig on the original mast position. It's an uncommon situation but a possibility, do the maths and have a look at that possibility first.

    Next option (and probably the more likely scenario) would be to beef up the bulkhead and deck to form partners and mast step for a free standing mast, offset, on one side of the companionway. That sets the mast a little forward of its current position and could perhaps still match a fairly high balance junk sail.

    Third option would be to move the mast forward so it can exit through the existing hatch and at a guess a lower balance junk rig would go there, but it seems to me more structural modifications to the deck and hull would be necessary than in the case of the previous two options in that case. Furthermore, you lose your hatch.

    You could probably make a viable sail plan with the mast just ahead of the hatch and very high balance rig. I personally prefer to see a mast as far aft as possible

    That's just based on the only two diagrams I could find. If you have the original sail plan I am sure someone could design a junk sail for you which would match the original sail plan in terms of helm balance, and I am also sure that converting back to the original rig would in any of these cases be quite feasible should you choose to do so, especially in the case of one of the first two options, less so in the case of the third. (And its not a silly idea to keep re-conversion in mind. I sold my original rig and regret it now because I would like to sell the boat but I would prefer not to part with my junk rig).


    While typing this I see Arne has got interested. I bet Arne could point you to a sail plan which would be very hard to resist. Be sure, as a starting point, to read Arne's notes in the Members Area/Documents/Technical Articles/Arne's Files section of this website.


    Wow! More than tuppence worth! Thank you, that's an inspiring post and so much to think about. Thank you also for the drawing/picture, the side-on view is quite revealing.

    The truth of the matter is that I have just acquired her, on the hard, never been on the water with her yet, so I have no idea what the balance feels like. Also, the boatyard packs them in with a crane rather than a hoist so there is literally 3 inches between neighbours. I haven't had chance to throw the covers off and stand back for a good look.
    I've got a relaxed Sunday today so I'm going to study your post in great detail and try and find more specific measurements and information. Thank you again, there'll be many questions I need to ask, I'm sure.

  • 02 Feb 2025 01:13
    Reply # 13457858 on 13457716
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    Here's my tuppence worth. The most excellent thing about a junk rig is not just the ease of reefing and handing the sail, but the complete elimination of jibs, staysails etc. There is simply nothing needed to do when when tacking other than put your coffee down somewhere it won't spill and just steer onto the next course, no sheeting of flapping jibs and you hardly even lose way. This is one of the reasons for these impressive GPS track recordings of tacking up a narrow channel. which we have been seeing recently on the forum. It is an understatement to say that a junk rig is almost as good as a bermudan rig upwind. In a confined channel it is far superior, which is why junk rigged boats are almost the only vessels you ever see tacking up a channel these days.

    You could do a proper junk rig conversion in such a way that you could always go back to the original rig, not that you ever will, but if perhaps it helps resale at some later point. I think it is wise to keep this in mind, but in the meantime don't compromise. (I have to disagree a little with Jan, here)

    I can't find a sail plan drawing to be sure of the following, but here is what it looks like. You need the mast to be near to the original mast position, or be able to move the mast position forward to the next bulkhead position, because you will want some decent knees or a beefed up bulkhead to support the deck and partners, which will bear the loading of the free standing mast. It looks as though the fore-triangle is very small on this sail plan (from what little I can find) and it is possible that you might be in the rare situation where a high-balance (33%) sail might just have a geometric centre (centre of area) which matches the centre of area of the bermudan rig. That would suggest your best bet would be a split junk rig on the original mast position. It's an uncommon situation but a possibility, do the maths and have a look at that possibility first.

    Next option (and probably the more likely scenario) would be to beef up the bulkhead and deck to form partners and mast step for a free standing mast, offset, on one side of the companionway. That sets the mast a little forward of its current position and could perhaps still match a fairly high balance junk sail.

    Third option would be to move the mast forward so it can exit through the existing hatch and at a guess a lower balance junk rig would go there, but it seems to me more structural modifications to the deck and hull would be necessary than in the case of the previous two options in that case. Furthermore, you lose your hatch.

    You could probably make a viable sail plan with the mast just ahead of the hatch and very high low balance rig. I personally prefer to see a mast as far aft as possible

    That's just based on the only two diagrams I could find. If you have the original sail plan I am sure someone could design a junk sail for you which would match the original sail plan in terms of helm balance, and I am also sure that converting back to the original rig would in any of these cases be quite feasible should you choose to do so, especially in the case of one of the first two options, less so in the case of the third. (And its not a silly idea to keep re-conversion in mind. I sold my original rig and regret it now because I would like to sell the boat but I would prefer not to part with my junk rig).


    While typing this I see Arne has got interested. I bet Arne could point you to a sail plan which would be very hard to resist. Be sure, as a starting point, to read Arne's notes in the Members Area/Documents/Technical Articles/Arne's Files section of this website.


    Last modified: 02 Feb 2025 09:20 | Anonymous member (Administrator)
  • 01 Feb 2025 23:23
    Reply # 13457846 on 13457804
    Anonymous member (Administrator)
    Andrew wrote:
    Anonymous wrote:

    I would look into installing a modern in-boom Bermudan reefing system and maybe adding another smaller roller-reefed jib (cutter rig) before you go hacking up a classic boat like that, she looks magnificent. Or... how about a junkette main and leave the mast where it is and keep a smaller foresail, you probably won't mind slowing down a bit. If it doesn't work you haven't screwed up a lovely classic boat, you can revert to the original rig. 

    Thanks, I totally agree. I did say in my first post "Would it be sacrilege to mess about with such a classic yacht?" However, my thinking is that I can probably make a frame to fit into the forward hatch and step the mast below on what is now the heads. That way I won't have to cut the boat at all. I would, of course, keep the original mast and boom and sails in a safe place. I haven't sailed her yet but I imagine she's going to be quite a handful.

    Andrew,

    I think your idea makes sense. Are you able to produce a profile view of the vessel, with some dimensions on it?
    That would allow some of us who happen to like to sketch sailplans, to have a closer look at it.



    Cheers,
    Arne
       " ...there is nothing - absolutely nothing - half so much worth doing as simply messing about in junk-rigged boats" 
                                                               - the Chinese Water Rat

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