strength in fibreglass mast wrap?

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  • 05 May 2012 05:34
    Reply # 912291 on 904906
    Thanks everyone for the insights.  It doesn't seem there's a way that doesn't involve a lot of cutting, shaping and planing.  The benefit over starting fresh is not wasting wood, but all solutions involve a lot of cutting and planing.  Options include:

    *start over from scratch. . . 
    *glue part of the mast into an aluminum pipe for a hybrid like Annie's mast.
    *narrow cut the 6 staves I have, flip them, create another 6 staves for a 12-sided mast
    *cut off the routed edges on the 8 staves, glue on wood to widen the staves again and re-router with an 8-sided bit
    *glue on wood to widen the staves and make a 6-sided mast with wider staves

    I think the last option probably involves the least additional cutting, planing and gluing without having to go get new wood (or alloy stock), and doesn't involve any additional re-routing.  

    This mast is going to be mostly glue when I'm done.  Maybe next time i'll save myself all the woodworking trouble and build up the whole thing out of laminated popsicle sticks.


  • 04 May 2012 18:11
    Reply # 911792 on 904906
    Deleted user
    I like Slieve's idea. I would also point out that if you have cut the bevel but haven't tapered the other side, you have the option of turning the staves "upside down." when you re-fit things.

    It sounds like your current angle makes a circle with 6 staves instead of the intended 8. Upside down (inside out?) would make a circle with more than 8 staves (12? I'll let you figure out the geometry instead of guessing here)

    That could be a better starting point for re-cutting it into an 9 or 10 stave mast like Slieve suggested.
  • 29 Apr 2012 20:21
    Reply # 906180 on 904906

    Just a thought, and not seeing exactly how far out the staves are, would it be possible to recut the 8 staves as part of a 9 stave mast and just add one more stave to make up the required size? Maybe 2 more staves would make it into a 10 stave mast. If you were sent the wrong cutter it might be reasonable to ask for a replacement for a different design. Could this be easier and cheaper than gluing strips with a flat joint to all 8 staves?

  • 29 Apr 2012 06:40
    Reply # 905497 on 904906
    If I understand the problem correctly you have 8 staves with the wrong angle birdsmouth? If this is the case I would glue strips the required thickness to the back (opposite side to birdsmouth) of the stave. Then recut the birdsmouth to the correct 45 degrees.
    Gary
  • 29 Apr 2012 02:32
    Reply # 905393 on 904906
    If I'm reading Karlis' original post correctly, the staves haven't yet been glued up, and the choices Karlis was suggesting were to re-cut the birdsmouth to the correct shape, losing a little diameter, or to scrap the birdsmouth, 8-stave, idea and make a 6-stave mast with 30 degree angles on the staves, thus losing a lot of diameter.
    When I said to build up the wooden mast, what I really meant was to build up each stave by gluing on a parallel strip on the side opposite the birdmouth, then recutting the birdsmouth to end up with staves as they were originally intended to be.
    Does that make sense?
  • 29 Apr 2012 01:42
    Reply # 905377 on 904906

    Karlis

    I would say that if you add laminate to the exterior of wooden mast to add stiffness, in order to get an effective result you would need to add it to the inside to (not feasible!!!)  you would effectively being turning the wood into a core..... think foam sandwich/nomex/balsa etc. You need to balance the laminate.  However you could try adding a balanced laminate to the exterior only..... something like  1 layer 600 biax / uni's /  1 layer 600 biax then use fairing comound to the achieve the required diameter..... I am not engineer and would not suggest you use the figures i have given..... these are just an example!!!  But I think this is not really a satisfactory soultion.

    Kurt has given you a good suggestion......... bond anonther layer of the same wood onto the exsisting structure and then reduce it to the correct diameter........  but the best solution, for complete peace of mind, without consulting a qualified engineer is to start again, as David suggested.  Perhaps you can sell the first mast to recover some costs.

    Peter

     

     

    Last modified: 29 Apr 2012 01:57 | Anonymous member
  • 28 Apr 2012 23:20
    Reply # 905253 on 904906
    Hi Karlis,

    First, I agree entirely with Arne's comments above.

    Second, Our wooden masts are heavily sheathed with unidirectional (and some double bias) e-glass, thickest on forward & aft surfaces, all finished with a protective layer of weave, and here's why: 
    ------------------------------------
    I wanted them to be approximately bomb-proof.

    I considered adding carbon, or kevlar. If our masts were small in diameter and we were wealthy, I would have used carbon, and over-engineered the thickness.

    Carbon is best, but must be sufficient to replace the timber's strength, because it's so stiff that the timber won't feel a thing. If the carbon cracks, gets nicked or delaminates, the wood will take a concentrated strain and very likely fail.
     
    Kevlar is in-between, and hard to work with. I calculated that ~3mm laminated on, would replace the tensile strength of the timber (which was already offshore-proven) and the masts would be considerably stiffer. I decided it was still too dissimilar to wood.

    E-glass can share the load with timber, because it adds only a little stiffness. Not very much, as I noticed when I lifted and bounced the masts a bit, after the epoxy was set. As soon as the mast bends at all, the tension and compression are experienced by the wood as well as the glass.

    That 's my reasoning, anyway. Open to debate, (for mehitabel, too late.)
    ------------------------------------

    In theory, performance suffers when a mast bends. I don't personally, for my purposes, agree. Performance in practical cruising terms suffers from sudden and concentrated loads, and benefits when gusts cause a bit of a flex. I can't imagine sailing a Laser with a mast that wouldn't bend. Yikes.

    In theory, weight aloft is a bad thing. I don't agree. Within the range of proper ballasting, the resulting slow roll rate is a safety and a comfort. I myself wouldn't worry about the wasted wood inside a sheathed mast.
    (I added 28kg to the foremast and 35kg to the main.)
    ------------------------------------

    My humble suggestion, based on this experience, is that you could recover the situation with unidirectional e-glass & epoxy sheathing, on the order of Arne's "quite thick" estimate. (But I won't pretend to engineer the mm for you.) Vacuum-bag it if possible. Put more on fore and aft surfaces. Protect all with a layer of mat or weave. If you can afford carbon, you can afford an engineering fee.

    Another and much funner alternative would be to laminate wood to the mast - out to, or almost out to, the intended thickness.

    I wish you luck, and soon a mast in the air!

    Cheers,
    Kurt
    Last modified: 28 Apr 2012 23:26 | Anonymous member
  • 28 Apr 2012 20:10
    Reply # 905192 on 904906
    Deleted user
    I don't like the idea of using FG to stiffen wood much. It can protect the surface effectively (if you can keep it from delaminating), but that is about it.

    If you add more FG to an existing FG structure, it becomes larger, stronger, and stiffer, because it is (effectively) a larger single structure.

    If you add FG to wood, they are different enough that they won't become a uniform composite object. Consider the problems that many people have found when they sheathed a wooden hull with FG.

    If you add enough FG to make the FG alone strong and stiff enough for the job, the weight of the wood inside is wasted.
  • 28 Apr 2012 09:25
    Reply # 904935 on 904906
    Karlis,
    I don't think that it's a good idea to think in terms of glass adding strength.  It adds hardness to the surface, which is good. It might add strength, but it won't add much rigidity. 
    A smaller diameter mast might be made strong enough, with a good choice and use of materials, but it will be much more flexible than a larger diameter mast, and this is a bad thing. A mast that whips around with the weight of the yard, etc, aloft is not good to live with. 
    Better to bite the bullet, and find a way to build the wooden mast at the right diameter.
  • 28 Apr 2012 09:03
    Reply # 904928 on 904906
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

                                                                         Stavanger, Saturday

    Karlis

    When Hasler and McLeod wrote what they did about glass sheathing of wooden masts, I guess they had ordinary chopped mat or roving in mind. The problem with that is that it is much more elastic than wood. Therefore the wooden mast may be stressed (bent) to the limits without getting much support from the sheathing.

    If the mast or roving is replaced with e-glass or s-glass with the most of the fibre orientation along the mast (unidirectional) and not woven, the sheathing will be much stiffer and probably add more support to the wooden mast. On the other hand we don’t want a sheathing material (carbon?) that is so stiff that it takes all the bending stress before the wood takes any load. That could mean ripping the sheathing first and then breaking the mast when the support from the sheathing has failed. My armchair guess is that a quite thick (5mm?) sheathing of unidirectional e-glass or s-glass would give a useful support. I may be wrong of course.

    Arne

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