Graeme wrote:...the current debate should probably not be taking place on this thread

Agree.  I've found the other thread ("ruffled feathers") and have provided my own recollections of the notorious River Rat Brixham incident for the record, however late in the day.

In Reply # 8984860 on 21/5 @ 20:09 I wrote, “Whenever someone writes something positive about the SJR on the website it is an odds on bet that within 24 hours you will respond with a two point post.”

So Edward writes today at 10:43 answering some interesting points, and explaining exactly why the information is being misunderstood, based on his own practical experience, and he gets the headmaster's comments at 12:10. So the marking service now only takes one hour and twenty seven minutes.

Yet again you post is negative and does nothing to advance the pool of knowledge. There is no point in going on about flapping, fluttering and flogging when those who actually use the rig do not have a problem with it. OK, if you go out of your way, as I have done, and abuse the rig it is possible to do these things and yes, I have done a destruction test to see how 'dangerous' as position you could end up in. I know of no other junk rig experimenter who has done a similar test, so perhaps other rigs should not be allowed to sail off shore. In fact if you are worried about such things then Bermudan sloops should not be allowed off shore at their jib can flog to death.

Actually, the jibs on the SJR had relatively short chord and relative short leeches, from batten to batten, so if forced to flog the destructive forces are much lower than on even a small working jib with its wider chord and full length leech, AND a shredded Bermudan jib at the wrong time could drop a sailor into big trouble.

Sorry David, yet again you are flogging a dead horse with you uninformed comments.

Similarly with you comments that no one has taken a SJR across an ocean, which is obviously your yardstick, so it shouldn't be done. Thank goodness Wilbur didn't have such a closed mind or we would all be sitting on the beach looking at the seagulls. Apollo 11 would be still sitting on the launch ramp waiting for someone to light the blue touch paper. To my knowledge no one has got into serious trouble with the integrity of a properly set up SJR to date, and my only embarrassments have been due to its better than Bermudan performance which we all know about. The same can not be said about some other junk rigs which no doubt you would cross an ocean with.

David, you write, “but until the pioneering has been done and there is some breadth and depth of experience, I for one cannot do other than advocate conservative design and robust construction”. I could draw up a conservative and robust design very easily. Based on you standards, we'll use 15% chord balance, which would require a steeper yard angle than optimum, and possibly less main camber that we are using. Now taking the slot out of the 15% jibs would leave a jib pretty well impossible to shape with sheeting angel and camber so it would be best to attach it to the luff of the main panels, and guess what, you end up with a flat HM rig. That would prove absolutely nothing. If anyone is going to build a SJR then it would seem reasonable to use the latest tested results and build a SJR. A couple of people have tried to remove some features and have not received the full advantages of the rig.

David, your repetitive unproven doubts are doing nothing to expand the pool of knowledge. A number of very sensible questions have been asked in this thread which I could answer from tested results, but frankly I see no point if you are going to follow up with negative uninformed and pointless guesses. I have much more to do with my time.

Slieve

Ryan,
frankly, I think there is too much talking about sail area and too little about vertical height of the sail. Take a look at the diagram with the two sails, below. I would think that the ‘smallest’ sail would be just as fast to windward, as the big one, since they have the same height. Downwind, on the other hand, the big sail would win easily. Ingeborg’s sail is not so tall, in fact, it is lower from tack to peak than the Bermuda rig, so she had no advantage here. In addition, during that little test race, we had no real downwind leg, except for a few boatlengths around B and B’, where Ingeborg quickly walked away from La Barca.
The hi-AR rig I have drawn for your Alberg 30, is much taller than the Bermuda rig. The vertical height of that sail is 11.02m while the same on the Bermuda rig is only 9.8m. It would not surprise me if the junk-rigged boat would be the faster one in a contest.
I suggest you wait with the ghoster. You may well find that the JR alone is enough.

Anyway, good luck  -  you must be pretty sore-eyed after all the advices...

Arne

( full size diagrams in Arne's sketches, section 4, photo 22)

Flapping, fluttering, fanning up and wotnot. (Part 2)

The other main contender to be fitted to that Alberg 30, is the Split Junk Rig, SJR.
It has been hinted that it may be unsafe for offshore work, partly because it may refuse to weather-cock properly, or it may not last very long because of jiblet fluttering.

I don’t buy any of these arguments.

Lack of weather-cocking. Most of those who have the SJR have had no problems with it. Only if you push the balance limit AND cut the jiblet so that they keep on pulling after the mainlets have luffed, will this occur. Anyone can screw up on this, initially, but when it has been put right, then the problem will not suddenly pop up again. Being conservative by nature, I guess I would stop at 33% balance to hedge my bets against bad workmanship (i.e. making jiblets with too narrow sheeting..). The big advantage with the 33% balance versus Ingeborg’s 16%, is both that the sheet forces go radically down, and the yaw moment is greatly reduced on the downwind leg.
Yesterday afternoon I had a spin in my Ingeborg. On the homeward, downwind leg, the wind suddenly increased until I wondered if I should drop a panel or two. Being only half a mile from harbour, I decided to carry on 7-up. Still, while struggling with keeping a half-straight course, I though to myself;  “Hm, what I could use now, is a squaresail!”. A SJR would be a very good alternative, right then.
During normal cruising, my rule of thumb is not to carry more sail downwind than I can carry when close-hauled. That ensures easy steering downwind.

(.. then, in case a sou’wester is blown overboard, I am ready to turn back and pick it up. Nice to know  -  one day the sou’wester may be attached to a fellow...)

Mast placement. Sometimes the interior of the boat will favour an aft-set mast. Then a La Chica sail (18-22% balance) or the SJR will be the answer. Other times it is the other way around.

Fluttering jibs. I think this problem has been blown up out of proportions. The SJR jiblets don’t rub on anything, and their chord is so short that the fluttering will be moderate compared to on a real staysail or genoa. Most of these rub on the mast each time one tacks, and the jib on my Johanna even had to rub around a babystay. These sails still last for a good while. Finally, even if those jibs should be blown to shreds in the middle of the Atlantic Ocean, the rest of the sail will bring the boat home just the same, only at a bit slower speed.
Sooo, don’t make a big problem out of a tiny one.

My only reason for not trying the SJR, is that I am too lazy, and also content, generally with Ingeborg the way she is.

Arne

Edward,

Your comments illustrate very well why the SJR has earned its place in the scheme of things, as I said earlier that it had. It works, there's no doubt about it. It's a good inshore rig. Its 'stresslessness' makes it easy to live with. The battens had been added to the jiblets by the time that video was taken, and though some gentle flapping is evident, it's not very likely that they'll flog themselves to bits in strong winds as a headsail will {I do think it's important to make a distinction between fluttering (due to bad sailmaking), flapping (any cambered sail will do that, battens or no) and flogging (as in a leech unconstrained by battens, or a clew)}

But I have to ask everyone again the question that I posed earlier, but didn't see any answers: Ryan asked for recommendations for a rig for his intended ocean sailing - who has taken the SJR ocean sailing? Is the SJR a proven offshore rig? Someone has to be first, someone has to be second, but until the pioneering has been done and there is some breadth and depth of experience, I for one cannot do other than advocate conservative design and robust construction. Better to have some headroom when things go pear-shaped in the middle of the ocean, not to have gone for the max (if that's not too many cliches in one sentence). With JR types other than SJR, too, I have a record of advocating a conservative approach - not too big, not too deeply cambered, and so on. Why? Because I've found out from personal experience that moderation in all things makes for a happier ocean sailor.