Alberg 30 Conversion Viability

  • 22 May 2020 10:43
    Reply # 8986112 on 8985254
    Deleted user
    Anonymous wrote:

    "Secondly, another valid concern was raised regarding flapping jiblets. I have personally never seen an as lively flapping JR sail as on the SJR. Example in this video. This wear issue concerns both cambered as well as SJR sails, while it ignores flat (hinged/non-hinged) and wingsails. It's simply another thing that should be considered. David in this thread suggests adding battens, while Arne suggests tabling should be sufficient. I don't see how this is poisonous downplaying of the rig, while discussing offshore use - merely reasonable suggestions. I haven't seen Kurt Jon Ulmer on these forums lately but if he was asked about this topic I'm sure he would say that he'd happily live without these issues of all other rigs altogether and sail happily along with his non-flapping flat sail, which he used to point out in a lot of threads in the past. Someone new to JR would definitely get something to ponder out of that, instead of Kurt being downplayed as a hater."

    Hi there,

    'ouf!'  Above shows the danger of quoting 'out of context', (or partisan editing).  Believe or not, I have not seen this  fascinating video until today.  So when i looked at what was shown, I too saw 'flapping jibs' and thought, I don't remember this.

    So I went to Utube and watched the whole excellent video.  In it you see Amiina approaching Tammy, and then 'feathering' the sail to slow down so I could talk to Richard.

    Now you can also see that the wind is very light.  Amiina deliberately has a thicker main sheet than necessary, because of my 'arthritic' hands.  Yet the sail 'feathers' beautifully.  Without any problem at all.

    Personally I have never seen a 'feathered' sail that does not FLAP, be it 'pointy', flat, cambered, or wing.

    The beauty of the SJR is its utter simplicity, & most importantly its 'stresslessness', in use.  There is far less actual stress in the rig itself, and in all the running rigging, than any other boat i have sailed.  It never misses a Beat.  It gybes 'like a butterfly', without any possibility of a 'fans up'.  It de-powers instantly, the moment you release the sheet.  As one reefs, the sail holds its shape and tension perfectly with the 'brilliant' downhauls.

    'ouf!'  I love my sail.  It is the nearest I have come to sailing in harmony with nature, and at peace with myself.  What more can one ask?  

  • 22 May 2020 09:02
    Reply # 8986035 on 8985572
    Ryan wrote:

    just back from a day of opening up various extents of rotten deck core

    Graeme: analysis paralysis is definitely something I’m prone to

    Arne: wow, thank you for the vivid elucidation. Has really put things into perspective.


    Looks like the mast is much easier to accommodate more forward as in Arne’s plan. The SJR mast coming through the entrance to the V would probably require me to offset the companionway to one side. And that hatch is pretty important to the V berth.

    I was in the same position when I converted Weaverbird. Thinking "Do I try to find a way of offsetting the door through the main bulkhead, so that I can put the mast there and try out a SJR for myself at last? No, it's more structural work than I want to tackle, and it impacts too much on the accommodation. Do I block off the forehatch and put the mast there? No I need the hatch for ventilation, if not for access, and again, it impacts on the accommodation. Do I find a way of putting the mast forward of the hatch? Yes, that'll work for helm balance, so long as I can accept minimal aerodynamic balance in the sail, and leaves the most room in the forecabin". So I ended up with the mast quite far forward, and don't regret it.

    I think I might throw together a stitch and glue dinghy and build a small rig to get a sense of things before I go for the full rig this winter when it’s too cold to work out in the boat shed.

    Good plan. I still have the dinghy that I used to use for trying out rig ideas that were too far out of the mainstream to be fully confident in investing the resources to build them at the size of a cruiser's rig.

    I’m inclined to take advantage of the newer refinements but I do not want to be dependent on a professional sailmaker. Trying to get up to speed reading about the camber improvements mentioned.

    To go right back to the beginning of this topic: I'm wondering if a schooner rig is right out of the question, as you mentioned ocean sailing intentions and schooner JR rigged boats have a long proven history. The things I mentioned against it were the main sliding hatch position (soluble) and the size of the boat and rig being a bit on the small side for two masts. But the long stern overhang makes sheeting the main easier than it is on a short-ended boat. Decisions, decisions...
  • 22 May 2020 03:57
    Reply # 8985715 on 8975930
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    I'm analysed-paralysed just about half of the time myself, so I know exactly how it feels to be swamped with all that well-meant advice.

    You are onto it regarding mast position - that seems to be the normal case with boats your size. I shifted a hatch to accommodate a SJR on my 26' Pelorus. Its doable, but a lot of extra work. The solution that you are leaning towards makes more sense in your boat. Another little advantage, not mentioned so far - with a lot of the rigs you can rake the mast forwards a few degrees, which becomes a rather endearing style or look, once you get used to it. It gives just a little more flexibility in deciding where to place the foot of the mast inside the accommodation - and experienced people such as Annie will tell you that this forward rake makes a better-behaved sail in some conditions. The SJR does not really lend itself to that.

    A few more words from one-who-is-still-learning to another:

    I can't recall if you have or have not mentioned reading Arne's notes for designing and making cambered sails, which are buried within this website in the Members Area, under Documents. An absolute must if you haven't already read through them. The shelf method of making camber is probably not too much more difficult and it appealed more to me because I liked the geometry of it, and because it is rather more necessary in the tiny jibs of a SJR - but I doubt very much if there would be much, or any noticeable difference in the way a normal DIY junk sail would perform. After all the debate about this, we still don't really know! Broad seam is a puzzle to me, and I don't suppose anyone can call themselves a proper sail maker until they have understood how to calculate for it. I am sure that too is no more difficult, if you can get the help of someone like David. I put broad seam into my top panel by following fairly simple instructions and it worked - but I am still none the wiser. You don't have to spend a lot of time worrying about which method is best (as I am always inclined to do.) They are all good, and once you are on your way there are good people who will help you along. Definitely make your own sail. The lofty Johanna type of set up on your type of boat is totally proven and if you like a bit of extra sail area into the bargain - that gives it to you.  Don't overlook the Weaverbird planform either. It seems to get a bit less attention, maybe because it is newer and there is not yet a package of detailed "how to do it" notes on file - but it is a distillation of a vast amount of experimentation and trialling; David has probably made more different types of junk sail than anyone living - I think there is probably only one he hasn't yet tried to make. Anyway, you seem to have settled on mast position, that is a major step out of the analysis paralysis swamp.

    The dinghy idea sounds like a good one. I threw a prototype onto a little trailer boat for the same reason - its a huge boost to the confidence when you find it actually works!

    Hope you get past that deck fixing business soon. Good luck.

    Last modified: 22 May 2020 05:16 | Anonymous member (Administrator)
  • 22 May 2020 02:42
    Reply # 8985572 on 8975930
    Deleted user

    just back from a day of opening up various extents of rotten deck core

    Graeme: analysis paralysis is definitely something I’m prone to

    Arne: wow, thank you for the vivid elucidation. Has really put things into perspective.


    Looks like the mast is much easier to accommodate more forward as in Arne’s plan. The SJR mast coming through the entrance to the V would probably require me to offset the companionway to one side. And that hatch is pretty important to the V berth.


    I think I might throw together a stitch and glue dinghy and build a small rig to get a sense of things before I go for the full rig this winter when it’s too cold to work out in the boat shed.


    I’m inclined to take advantage of the newer refinements but I do not want to be dependent on a professional sailmaker. Trying to get up to speed reading about the camber improvements mentioned.

  • 22 May 2020 01:36
    Reply # 8985431 on 8985254
    Oscar wrote: Secondly, another valid concern was raised regarding flapping jiblets. I have personally never seen an as lively flapping JR sail as on the SJR. Example in this video. This wear issue concerns both cambered as well as SJR sails, while it ignores flat (hinged/non-hinged) and wingsails. It's simply another thing that should be considered. David in this thread suggests adding battens, while Arne suggests tabling should be sufficient. I don't see how this is poisonous downplaying of the rig, while discussing offshore use - merely reasonable suggestions. I haven't seen Kurt Jon Ulmer on these forums lately but if he was asked about this topic I'm sure he would say that he'd happily live without these issues of all other rigs altogether and sail happily along with his non-flapping flat sail, which he used to point out in a lot of threads in the past. Someone new to JR would definitely get something to ponder out of that, instead of Kurt being 


    While I've seen flapping jiblets, I have to say, I've not observed flapping in my cambered rigs, nor have I seen it in Arne's... a bit of gentle waving, yes but nothing that could be called flapping or flogging.

  • 21 May 2020 23:54
    Reply # 8985302 on 8975930
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    And lastly, is there a thread where David hasn't replied within 24 hours, offering help/advice/insight? :D This is what makes these forums so valuable, the number of knowledgeable regular posters sharing their knowledge for free.

    Never a truer word was spoken, Oscar, and while I would question some of the points in your pre-amble, your conclusion is spot-on. Credit where credit is due, and to David especially who deserves a major share of it.

    I would like to suggest shifting this discussion away to another thread, because this was meant to be an opportunity for Ryan to brainstorm some ideas for a rig for his Alberg 30 and he must by now be wondering what on earth he has opened up here!!

  • 21 May 2020 23:37
    Reply # 8985277 on 8975930

    You really don't get it David.

    I've already had off line comments which state, “Well said, Slieve”, simply because contributors are fed up with you thinking that you are the headmaster and marking our work. Even in this latest post you are talking about “if designed conservatively and built robustly” based on no significant experience. Yet again you are quoting your long distance sailing as judgement by talking about a N Atlantic circuit or a series of ocean voyages as your yardstick.

    You are saying that a split rig cannot be trusted on a long trip because it hasn't sailed what you call a long trip. That Luddite attitude would still have us sitting on a log raft holding up a bear skin.

    When I look through the various designs you have put forward, and maybe even sailed over long trips, I don't see one that I would prefer to use after actually having had just a little experience of the split rig.

    I can see no point in contributing to the JRA site to receive such uninformed criticism.


  • 21 May 2020 23:19
    Reply # 8985254 on 8975930

    Just a quick chime in from someone who just recently strongly considered building a split junk rig. There tends to be passionate arguments in these forums when it comes to different types of rigs, especially when a lot of the authors of the rig "forks" are still active here - we have people who have focused hard on designing/building cambered sails, flat sails, flats with hinges, split junk rig, aerojunk, wingsails... Most of these derivatives have sought to improve on some points lacking in the others, so it's natural that whenever one of these rigs are brought up, usually touting their benefits, the weaker points would also be brought up along with the strong ones. This would be a terrible echo chamber if that wasn't the case! And the discussion here is generally very civil, unlike when trying to discuss junk rig on a generic sailing forum.

    Some valid concerns about the SJR were brought up here, one being the excessive(?) balance of the rig, of which Slieve himself acknowledged initially when designing the rig for Poppy if I remember correctly, but he later turned confident in increasing it a bit further. There seems to be something specific going on with the slotted sail, because if you think about rigging a normal JR with 35% balance you would surely have some sheeting issues, which I know for a fact from what my dad has reported with his Arne-type cambered sail where he's been able to sail close-winded with the sheets slack, simply by easing the tack parrel to balance the sail across the mast. And anyone in their right mind would have to admit that not being able to feather a sail properly with ease is very bad for an otherwise seaworthy boat. The SJR is pushing these balance boundaries to the limit so there's no wonder there are (as there should be) some words of caution against it, especially when it comes to offshore use.

    Secondly, another valid concern was raised regarding flapping jiblets. I have personally never seen an as lively flapping JR sail as on the SJR. Example in this video. This wear issue concerns both cambered as well as SJR sails, while it ignores flat (hinged/non-hinged) and wingsails. It's simply another thing that should be considered. David in this thread suggests adding battens, while Arne suggests tabling should be sufficient. I don't see how this is poisonous downplaying of the rig, while discussing offshore use - merely reasonable suggestions. I haven't seen Kurt Jon Ulmer on these forums lately but if he was asked about this topic I'm sure he would say that he'd happily live without these issues of all other rigs altogether and sail happily along with his non-flapping flat sail, which he used to point out in a lot of threads in the past. Someone new to JR would definitely get something to ponder out of that, instead of Kurt being downplayed as a hater.

    Similarly, in the wingsail threads there are often downsides of the rig pointed out, like the lack of sail balance, the expense and labour involved in making the rig components. These are valid points as well, that should be brought up, if someone wants to build a wingsail. Likewise in a thread like this about SJR, different perspectives should have the ability to be brought up without scrutiny.

    And lastly, is there a thread where David hasn't replied within 24 hours, offering help/advice/insight? :D This is what makes these forums so valuable, the number of knowledgeable regular posters sharing their knowledge for free.

  • 21 May 2020 21:46
    Reply # 8985096 on 8975930

    Oh, Slieve, Slieve! I know it's pointless for me to say this, but I'm going to go ahead and say it anyway:

    I am not biassed against the SJR. I recognise that it has a place in the scheme of things, and that it has earned itself a loyal following. Objectively, I see that it has strengths and that it has weaknesses. Subjectively, I see things about it that I do like and things about it that I don't like. I think that if designed conservatively and built robustly, it could be a sensible choice of rig for the boat under discussion and its intended usage. I try to comment on all of those aspects as accurately as I am able. Yet it would appear that only so long as I comment positively are my comments received without rancour.

    Now, having said that, can anyone think of a sailor who has taken a SJR on, let's say, a N Atlantic circuit, or indeed any series of ocean passages of similar mileage, and has come back and described in detail what went well, what went not so well, what they would change in the rig if they were to do it again, what is a complete 'no-no', what they liked, what they didn't like? That kind of ocean-going knowledge is readily available for other forms of JR. I do not know where to find it for the SJR. Until there is the same depth of knowledge as there now is for inshore use, I think it's only prudent to err on the conservative and cautious side, when planning a new offshore rig.

  • 21 May 2020 20:09
    Reply # 8984860 on 8975930

    Why is it, I muse gently to myself, that whenever I make observations about SJR from the point of view of an experienced sailor, I have to endure personal attacks from the SJR partisans?

    The fact that you ask suggests that you are now beginning to realise that readers are fed up with being talked down to and hearing your bias against the SJR.

    Surely it must be obvious David. Whenever someone writes something positive about the SJR on the website it is an odds on bet that within 24 hours you will respond with a two point post.

    The first point will be to remind us of you vast experience, presumably to suggest that you know more than the rest of us, and forgetting that we also may have some little experience not necessarily simply based on miles sailed, and possibly even of more relevance to the topic in question, and which we do not feel we have to boast about.

    After reminding us of you expertise your second point will be your usual criticism of the SJR, based on your opinion and not on any significant material facts or experiments.

    For example, you continuously make unsubstantiated statements about balance and stability which cause confusion even though controlled tests have provided results which have proved to be acceptable. Equally you continuously denigrate the durability of the rig which can be built to whatever strength the user would wish to apply. Four days of riding out a force 10 before making harbour with no signs of damage or wear to a lightly built split rig clearly does no suggest that the rig is unsound?

    When you agree to back off then I for one feel it might be worth starting to contribute to the discussions again, because as things stand I have only been writing when invited to as there has been no point in writing simply to receive unsubstantiated criticism.


       " ...there is nothing - absolutely nothing - half so much worth doing as simply messing about in junk-rigged boats" 
                                                               - the Chinese Water Rat

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