Cambered sails VS flat/ hinged battens on a Badger.

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  • 01 Mar 2020 10:34
    Reply # 8784860 on 8784076
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    David,

    although I usually keep nagging about adding camber, I agree with David Ty. and his three stages.

    That said...

    ·         I don’t buy any argument that a tender boat is better off with flat sails. I have sailed for so long with fairly big sails and some camber, that reefing has become second nature. I bet, on my last boat, Frøken Sørensen, I was down on one reef or more, at least half of the time  -  and that was during inshore daytrips. I never regarded the boat as over-rigged, but was glad I could hoist an extra panel in light winds.
    Same with my present Ingeborg. First panel is dropped in the lower half of F4.
    So, to me, reefing early is the answer, not degrading the JR with flat panels.

    ·         I am sceptical to wooden battens. Wood is too stiff and heavy compared to its strength, in my view. The problem is the shock-load put on them at the end of a sudden half-long gybe. The tubular, thin-walled aluminium battens can take such loads much better: The combination of light weight, flexibility and strength therefore makes them more suited for battens (just like bamboo).

    Arne

    PS;
    As for steering problems with Freedoms: Some have already improved their steering by simply adding an endplate on the rudder.


    Last modified: 01 Mar 2020 12:55 | Anonymous member (Administrator)
  • 01 Mar 2020 08:56
    Reply # 8784770 on 8784076

    A suggestion:

    Stage 1: Sail the boat, see if performance falls short of what you wish for.

    Stage 2: Wooden battens have been hinged, using a short external rectangular tube hinge over the ends of the battens which have been cut into a wedge shape.

    Stage 3: If this gives the extra drive you're looking for, but with too much tenderness, that would be time to invest in lighter tubular battens.

  • 01 Mar 2020 00:47
    Reply # 8784456 on 8784076

    David, dories are tender.  The extra weight in the wooden battens wouldn't make a noticeable difference.  Honestly. And, arguably, a baggy sail might increase the tendency.

    I'm not entirely convinced about baggy sails for long distances.  Alan (Zebedee) is and will be putting new sails to the test when he leaves here, in a year or so. for another circumnavigation.  Designer David and I both agreed to try a small amount of camber plus hinged battens on Fanshi.  He made these (battens) for me and they are presently languishing in Auckland while DHL and Customs agree on what ransom I will be charged to release them.

    Shirley and I have been talking about camber.  She didn't like her baggy sails and found that they were much more stressed than the flat ones.  She changed back after too many breakages, but said that she can't help noticing how well the junks with baggy sails did at our Tall Ships regatta.  For coastal sailing I think they are probably preferable.  Would I want them if heading down for long periods in the S Ocean?  Probably not.  For a simple Trade Wind passage or circumnavigation?  Possibly not, unless I intended to do a lot of exploring along the way.  But of course, the Trade Winds don't always read the books, as most long-distance sailors have experienced!

    As ever, you pays your money and you makes your choice.  As you say, you may as well get to know the boat with the sails that she comes with, first, and you may find that, like most people, when the destination is dead upwind, you use that very expensive iron topsail, which takes up so much room in your boat and get your money's worth from it!  then you can happily keep your flat sails!

  • 29 Feb 2020 17:15
    Message # 8784076
    Deleted user

    Hello all, still dreaming of getting my Badger down to the ocean from it hard stand berth in Vermont.  Issues with insurance/ age of survey/ surveying a frozen boat.

    My job takes me away til June anyway so it looks as if June she will come on truck or I will trick Kim into a canal and Hudson River transit.

    My Badger comes with a very nice set of flat dacron sails.  I am not in a rush to change these til they wear out, especially after reading Annie's report of sailing the length of the Falklands to windward with flat sails.  I'll just make some covers for them and get to know the boat well first.

    I enjoyed seeing David Tyler's Weaverbird featured in BOTM Feb.  He mentioned hinged battens.  I believe my battens are wood so a natural modification I would make would be to aluminum.  This would also lighten the rig as well and decrease heeling and effort to make sail.  So the idea of improving my windward performance by simply adding hinged Aluminum battens crossed my mind.

    However around 2012 I wasted a whole lot of money paying for a survey then flying to see a Freedom 30 ketch in Cornwall.  This pig of a boat had other problems such as too tender, rudder ineffective so it could barely tack OR gybe in 20K.  I ran away especially since I was after a handy coastal cruiser.  

    Now it did have hinged battens on flat sails and it just seemed that even with only a few panels set (too tender to set more) the sails were just TOO full and pulled the boat sideways.  So not a good intro to hinges!

    So I will get my Badger and get to know her feel.  But I would love to hear if my Freedom experience with hinges was an anomaly and that this might be a very simple mod.

    I have also read somewhere that the cambered sails place a lot more load on the rigs.  Again load is limited to the stability of the boat.  More load = less sail possible.  Less load = more sail.

    Here are some pics of the boat on Lake Champlain sailed by Joe, her builder.


    Looking forward to your thoughts.

    PS. Roll on Spring!



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