Richy wrote:

David (Tyler), while I understand the advantages of amas, outriggers of any kind are not practical for us, since we spend a significant amount of time going through tight spaces between rocks, taking the boat out of the water onto the rocks and putting it back in, and generally doing quite "amphibious" activities.

I agree with a simple rig, and have some thoughts on that, will deliberate soonish.

OK, I wasn't thinking so much of the long beams of a genuine proa, more of putting the leeboards on just a lightly longer beam, and making them buoyant. Or just having one buoyant leeboard maybe half a metre away from the kayak. Maybe look at what the modern foiling boats are up to, with foils that project some distance from the hull, but are retractable.

Full battens certainly make sense. It's the chinese sheeting and topping lift system that  tends to get in a bit of a tangle when you rig and unrig a dinghy-size junk. At kayak-size, wanting to lower the sail bundle into the kayak to reduce windage when paddling, I see that as a deal-breaker.

Hi David Doran,

thank you for the pointer to Solway Dory - I have looked at them, and will look at them again, now that I have better questions than the first time I did.

Will definitely also check out "Song of the paddle" website, it's on my research list already.

I appreciate any and all input and views! This is a fun process.

Hi David (Tyler),

thank you for the hint - yes I did and decided right afterwards to change it back again, but then simply forgot! I'll fix that soon.

If we could travel at around 60 degrees off the wind, that would be useful in practice for us. Much worse, and the practicality really suffers for our application. Just beam on sailing as the best that can be achieved is nearing almost not being worth taking the mast and sail, for us.

Was your canvas sail an actual three dimensional wing shape?

I didn't choose these clips to show upwind sailing. 

Kayaksailor.com, whose sails seem to be talked about as "the one that got upwind sailing right", informed me by email that their estimate based on experience is that sit on top kayaks can "point up to 45 degrees close to the wind, and then lose a few degrees by lateral movement".

Also, Sailboatstogo.com made a statement to me by email about an effective course of 60 degrees off he wind being quite achievable with a sit on top, and probably better.

Speaking of Sailboats To Go, there is much to be liked about a crab claw type sail, except that it can't be reefed well at all, and it's therefore not very good for a wide range of wind speeds as we have here.

I have seen a video of someone in a sit on top with a pretty basic self made sail slowly sail a nearly complete circle (teardrop course, really) with maybe 50 meters diameter in light wind - and I can NOT find the video again, aargh!

I wonder what to believe now.

Guess we'll find out more with our own rig(s) eventually.

I think a three dimensional sail is probably necessary especially for kayaks. We don't mind falling into the water, but we'd rather not do that every ten minutes - our goal is not speed, but more reach, and getting to our destinations with more physical energy left for whatever we want to do once there.

I really appreciate our conversation, thank you very much!

A canoe company, "Solwaydory.co.uk" make sails and accessories for open canoes along with open and closed deck canoes.  

They used to make Lug Sails of various sizes, but now I think they only make a small lug sail but 2 different sizes of Bermudan, reefing being done by turning the mast and wrapping the sail.  

From videos on their website, some big journeys have been done including plenty of upwind work.  

As far as I know, they will sell the sail on its own, leaving you to source the various tubes locally, if preferred.  

The owners have always been very helpful with advice on "The Song of the Paddle" website.  

Both sites worth a visit.  

Dave D.  

That's all for now.

I would be very interested in any thoughts you might be able to share with me.

We are half way through summer down here in New Zealand, and we want to get the first prototype sail done and go sailing as soon as possible!

I expect to have to make several until we are satisfied with the results, but getting something half useful out on the water soon would be really good.

Thank you for reading! Looking forward to hear from you!