Easy to handle sail plan for serious use with sit on top kayak - thoughts?

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  • 16 Jan 2020 08:55
    Reply # 8588992 on 8566531

    A quick doodle of a simple junk sail.

    Mast 2200mm LAP, boom 1625mm, yard 1180mm, area 2.4 sq m, three point sheet span with a single part sheet.

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  • 16 Jan 2020 08:03
    Reply # 8588633 on 8586045
      Richy wrote:

    David (Tyler), while I understand the advantages of amas, outriggers of any kind are not practical for us, since we spend a significant amount of time going through tight spaces between rocks, taking the boat out of the water onto the rocks and putting it back in, and generally doing quite "amphibious" activities.

    I agree with a simple rig, and have some thoughts on that, will deliberate soonish.

    OK, I wasn't thinking so much of the long beams of a genuine proa, more of putting the leeboards on just a lightly longer beam, and making them buoyant. Or just having one buoyant leeboard maybe half a metre away from the kayak. Maybe look at what the modern foiling boats are up to, with foils that project some distance from the hull, but are retractable.

    Full battens certainly make sense. It's the chinese sheeting and topping lift system that  tends to get in a bit of a tangle when you rig and unrig a dinghy-size junk. At kayak-size, wanting to lower the sail bundle into the kayak to reduce windage when paddling, I see that as a deal-breaker.

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    Last modified: 16 Jan 2020 10:07 | Anonymous member
  • 16 Jan 2020 01:56
    Reply # 8586084 on 8566531

    Hey all,

    I have uploaded a few photos to my photo album that show the current state of our project, have a look if you like.

    You will probably wonder about a few design choices and maybe disagree - awesome, please do let me hear your views, I'm pretty difficult to offend, and I'd like to know what you think!

    I will explain our so far design choices in future posts, not enough time right now. Let me just say for now that there are reasons for nearly every choice we have made, most of them resulting from our use case of the boat

    That's not to say that we haven't made mistakes or won't make any further ones - I fully expect many mistakes! All part of the journey.

    EDIT: Oops forgot, I already uploaded those photos at the beginning of this thread - sorry! Oh well now they are also in my album.

    Last modified: 16 Jan 2020 01:57 | Anonymous member
  • 16 Jan 2020 01:49
    Reply # 8586059 on 8566531

    Hi David Doran,

    thank you for the pointer to Solway Dory - I have looked at them, and will look at them again, now that I have better questions than the first time I did.

    Will definitely also check out "Song of the paddle" website, it's on my research list already.

    I appreciate any and all input and views! This is a fun process.

  • 16 Jan 2020 01:46
    Reply # 8586045 on 8566531

    David (Tyler), while I understand the advantages of amas, outriggers of any kind are not practical for us, since we spend a significant amount of time going through tight spaces between rocks, taking the boat out of the water onto the rocks and putting it back in, and generally doing quite "amphibious" activities.

    That's one main reason we chose a sit on top over a sit inside, and also the reason we didn't choose a bigger boat.

    I am not overly concerned with carrying the biggest possible sail area. We don't want to go fast; we want to go at a good paddling pace, but for longer, to increase our reach, but while sitting up, without hiking out (unless maybe when we're in a hurry on the odd occasion). Also, the hull speed is probably somewhere around 10 to at most 15 kilometres per hour, so no matter how much sail area we throw at that, that will be the limit anyway. And obviously this hull is not going to plane, unless when surfing the odd (and unexpectedly large) wave maybe.

    I agree with a simple rig, and have some thoughts on that, will deliberate soonish.

  • 16 Jan 2020 01:40
    Reply # 8585986 on 8566531

    Hi David (Tyler),

    thank you for the hint - yes I did and decided right afterwards to change it back again, but then simply forgot! I'll fix that soon.

    If we could travel at around 60 degrees off the wind, that would be useful in practice for us. Much worse, and the practicality really suffers for our application. Just beam on sailing as the best that can be achieved is nearing almost not being worth taking the mast and sail, for us.

    Was your canvas sail an actual three dimensional wing shape?

    I didn't choose these clips to show upwind sailing. 

    Kayaksailor.com, whose sails seem to be talked about as "the one that got upwind sailing right", informed me by email that their estimate based on experience is that sit on top kayaks can "point up to 45 degrees close to the wind, and then lose a few degrees by lateral movement".

    Also, Sailboatstogo.com made a statement to me by email about an effective course of 60 degrees off he wind being quite achievable with a sit on top, and probably better.

    Speaking of Sailboats To Go, there is much to be liked about a crab claw type sail, except that it can't be reefed well at all, and it's therefore not very good for a wide range of wind speeds as we have here.

    I have seen a video of someone in a sit on top with a pretty basic self made sail slowly sail a nearly complete circle (teardrop course, really) with maybe 50 meters diameter in light wind - and I can NOT find the video again, aargh!

    I wonder what to believe now.

    Guess we'll find out more with our own rig(s) eventually.

    The kayaks are supposed to be sailed upright, with little enough sail are that just leaning your upper body a bit is sufficient for balance.

    I think a three dimensional sail is probably necessary especially for kayaks. We don't mind falling into the water, but we'd rather not do that every ten minutes - our goal is not speed, but more reach, and getting to our destinations with more physical energy left for whatever we want to do once there.

    I really appreciate our conversation, thank you very much!

    Last modified: 16 Jan 2020 01:42 | Anonymous member
  • 15 Jan 2020 18:35
    Reply # 8582825 on 8566531

    Personally, I'd add an ama, so that it becomes a tacking proa like the Malibu Outrigger or CLC Outrigger Junior. Then you'd get some sail-carrying power and the choice of rigs would be wider. I wouldn't go for a junk rig, though. A simpler rig that stows easily inside the boat seems more appropriate.

  • 15 Jan 2020 10:42
    Reply # 8579267 on 8566531

    A canoe company, "Solwaydory.co.uk" make sails and accessories for open canoes along with open and closed deck canoes.  

    They used to make Lug Sails of various sizes, but now I think they only make a small lug sail but 2 different sizes of Bermudan, reefing being done by turning the mast and wrapping the sail.  

    From videos on their website, some big journeys have been done including plenty of upwind work.  

    As far as I know, they will sell the sail on its own, leaving you to source the various tubes locally, if preferred.  

    The owners have always been very helpful with advice on "The Song of the Paddle" website.  

    Both sites worth a visit.  

    Dave D.  

  • 15 Jan 2020 09:45
    Reply # 8578807 on 8566531


    You've signed your first and last posts, but are showing as anonymous in the box to the left of the postings. Have you gone into your profile and adjusted the privacy settings? If you set these so that members can see who you are, but the whole of the internet outside of the logged-in members area can't, it's secure enough, and we tend to be more positive about offering help.

    My first command at age ~15 years was a wood and canvas canoe I'd made myself, with a rig, rudder and leeboards. Sails made out of old bed sheets my mother let me have. I could make it go to windward, but the difficulty was that I couldn't move my weight as you can do on a dinghy, so stability was extremely limited and I could only sail in light to moderate airs. Without solving that issue, it seems that there's little point in going for anything more than a simple downwind sail.

    In your youtube clips, I see the kayaks beam reaching, not going to windward, and only one paddle-assisted tack. That would seem to be about the limit on performance, I wouldn't expect a kayak to do better.

    Last modified: 15 Jan 2020 09:56 | Anonymous member
  • 14 Jan 2020 05:36
    Reply # 8566736 on 8566531

    That's all for now.

    I would be very interested in any thoughts you might be able to share with me.

    We are half way through summer down here in New Zealand, and we want to get the first prototype sail done and go sailing as soon as possible!

    I expect to have to make several until we are satisfied with the results, but getting something half useful out on the water soon would be really good.

    Thank you for reading! Looking forward to hear from you!

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