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Cambered panel sails on Ti Gitu

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  • 01 Oct 2012 12:47
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    Reply # 1087738 on 766440
    Anonymous member
    I have just returned from a three day sail with my yard hauling parrel rigged like Paul Fay's (except for the fall passing outside of the mast to the yard heel).  It does seem to take some of the pressure off the throat hauling parrel, working with it rather than in opposition to it, though the latter is still vital to hauling back the body of the sail and getting it to set properly.  With these two parrels, I now only have one HK parrel, in the intermediate panel, providing additional support to the top sheeted batten, and my sail sets without any creases at all.  I also have a lower luff hauling parrel that I set up with slight tension to stabilise the lower luff.  By keeping tension on the yard and throat hauling parrels while reefing or furling (made easy by the use of rope clutches), I can easily induce slight positive stagger in the battens as well.  My sail is now almost as easy to handle as the flat sail I rigged for a while last year.
  • 30 Sep 2012 12:54
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    Reply # 1087170 on 766440
    Anonymous member

    On Ti Gitu we have the yard hauling parrel fitted just above the halyard. It then goes between the mast and the yard. It took a little adjusting before we had it clearing everything and at the moment when lowering the sail it can sometimes get caught between the battens which then holds the yard up stopping it from lowering completely. We will have to re route it slightly and make sure that we pull it in properly when lowering to stop this happening.

    The plastic tube over ropes going up the mast really helps to reduce friction and my next experiment will be to make a rope and plastic tube hoop around the mast with a block attached. Rather than going round the mast the yard hauling parrel will go through this block which will hopefully help when we haul on the yard hauling parrel.

    The only problem we may find with this is that because our masts are tapered when this hoop is at the top of the mast it will be slack and we may have to move the yard hauling parrel up the yard to allow for this.

    I have just started to put many of the things we have found up onto my website which can be found here http://www.faymarine.com/Pauls%20Information%20Site/Index_Yacht_info.htm  There will be mort to come.
  • 24 Sep 2012 16:38
    Quote
    Reply # 1081641 on 1081510
    Anonymous member
    Graham Cox wrote:David, I'd like to try Paul Fay's yard hauling parrel set up but am unclear on which side of the mast the fall should go on its way forward to the heel of the yard.  In Paul's drawing it looks like it passes between the mast and the yard but this seems to me to be likely to induce chafe, especially in my set up where the fendering and sail are lashed to the yard.  It would seem best to me to pass it outside the mast (to stbd) like the fixed yard parrel.  Any comments?
    Yes, to starboard of the mast, so that it almost makes a fixed yard parrel redundant.
  • 24 Sep 2012 13:45
    Quote
    Reply # 1081510 on 766440
    Anonymous member
    David, I'd like to try Paul Fay's yard hauling parrel set up but am unclear on which side of the mast the fall should go on its way forward to the heel of the yard.  In Paul's drawing it looks like it passes between the mast and the yard but this seems to me to be likely to induce chafe, especially in my set up where the fendering and sail are lashed to the yard.  It would seem best to me to pass it outside the mast (to stbd) like the fixed yard parrel.  Any comments?
  • 23 Sep 2012 13:29
    Quote
    Reply # 1080605 on 1076263
    Anonymous member
    David Tyler wrote:Today, I rigged my Yard Hauling Parrel as described by Paul Fay in his article, with the fall running through a block attached to the heel of the yard. I can't speak too definitely on the basis of just one sail, but I can say that:
    • The load on the YHP was about the same as before, as I'd expected.
    • The effect of pulling down on the heel of the yard was very marked. Even more than on Ti Gitu, I suspect, because my YHP is two-thirds of the way up the yard. So much so that I don't think I need such an aggressive Throat Hauling Parrel as I have now. Once I'd done the big heave on the YHP, I had to do little more than take the slack out of the THP. 
    I'm impressed.
    Today I rigged a block on the forward end of the yard in preparation. My Halyard sling point is at 50% on the yard but there is a bit more weight in the forward end of the yard.
  • 21 Sep 2012 22:58
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    Reply # 1079291 on 766440
    Anonymous member
    Because I have been concentrating on just getting the boat ready to launch I haven't been paying too much attention to rig developments and sail trimming methods. Having read this thread and Paul's excellent PDFs I have to say I now have a few new things to think about.
    A very interesting and informative thread.
  • 20 Sep 2012 21:56
    Quote
    Reply # 1078065 on 766440
    Deleted user
    I haven't tried Paul's ideas yet, and sadly failed to meet up with him and Mo in Falmouth UK before Maddy and I left for Plymouth UK, but here are a couple of things about Paradox's cambered sails following our first sail in 15-20 knot winds with regular 25 knot gusts.

    First, the sails (shelf-foot by Chris Scanes) are very powerful. She's a 39 foot 16 ton displacement schooner in which we got 6-7 knots with the offshore wind just aft of the beam, with only four panels on each sail. In some muddled seas 10 nm off St Austell Bay we reefed down to three panels in each - there was no need to change course to do that - we just eased the halyards and hauled in the yard parrels. We experienced no change in speed, but she was instantly much easier to handle. So one advantage of cambered panels is that you perhaps don't need so many up. I think we'd have noticed a speed drop in our previous 32 ft flat panel Sunbird schooner junk.

    Secondly, once out of the wind and waves in the lee of Penlee Point, Plymouth (UK) we were able to tack into Cawsand Bay's anchorage in what was by then a very light wind, still with just three panels on each mast. In our Sunbird we'd have fired up the engine or raised more sail. It made a great end to the day.
    Last modified: 21 Sep 2012 00:00 | Deleted user
  • 19 Sep 2012 07:34
    Quote
    Reply # 1076263 on 766440
    Anonymous member
    Today, I rigged my Yard Hauling Parrel as described by Paul Fay in his article, with the fall running through a block attached to the heel of the yard. I can't speak too definitely on the basis of just one sail, but I can say that:
    • The load on the YHP was about the same as before, as I'd expected.
    • The effect of pulling down on the heel of the yard was very marked. Even more than on Ti Gitu, I suspect, because my YHP is two-thirds of the way up the yard. So much so that I don't think I need such an aggressive Throat Hauling Parrel as I have now. Once I'd done the big heave on the YHP, I had to do little more than take the slack out of the THP. 
    I'm impressed.
  • 31 Aug 2012 18:16
    Quote
    Reply # 1061684 on 1061488
    Anonymous member
    Robert Groves wrote:

    On the same topic, with regard to the enthusiasm to re-create 'Practical Junk Rig' for modern times, I think it could wait a while. Until Hasler & McLeod's rigor and proven scantlings can be matched - for the new sail patterns, in the open ocean.
     Open ocean sailing is where I prefer to be and the flat sails will be my choice for the foreseeable future. The current PJR is good and the new designs need more testing and refining before PJR is rewritten.
    Just to correct what seems to be a misapprehension - nobody is going to re-create or re-write PJR. Very nearly everything it is as true today as the day it was published, and there is very little to find fault with. It recorded the state of the art at that time. Yet it pointed the way towards everything that we are now doing, saying, in effect, "we haven't got around to trying this, but it could be an interesting avenue to explore". They say that, specifically, about cambered panels, in chapter 1. I quote:" It would be possible to cut a sail with this fullness built into each panel ... but the implications of this would have to be studied empirically on a full-sized boat".

    What we would like to do is to gather everything together that has been written about, talked about and actually done with the junk rig since PJR was written, get it all into a consistent readable format, and publish it without too much editorial comment. Nothing too judgemental, no strong advocacy of newer designs - just saying "this is what is going on now, has been going on since before PJR was written ( I made my first wingsail about 5 years before its publication) and will continue to go on, as we work through the ideas that Blondie and Jock proposed."

    A supplement to PJR, not a re-write.

    But as well as that, Gerry O'Brien has embarked on writing a book in which he will stand back a bit, take an objective view of what we've all been doing, and deal in more detail with history, context, comparisons and such like things. Still nothing remotely connected with re-creating PJR.
    Last modified: 31 Aug 2012 18:49 | Anonymous member
  • 31 Aug 2012 12:34
    Quote
    Reply # 1061488 on 1057261
    Deleted user


    On the same topic, with regard to the enthusiasm to re-create 'Practical Junk Rig' for modern times, I think it could wait a while. Until Hasler & McLeod's rigor and proven scantlings can be matched - for the new sail patterns, in the open ocean.


    While I have no experience with cambered sails, at all, I'm reluctant to move away from the schooner rigged flat sails. They have proven themselves time and time again in open ocean sailing. Easy to repair or jury rig after damage. Go to wind as much as I need and better than some gaff rig ketches I have sailed with. Open ocean sailing is where I prefer to be and the flat sails will be my choice for the foreseeable future. The current PJR is good and the new designs need more testing and refining before PJR is rewritten.
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