A sail for an X-99

  • 30 Nov 2011 16:18
    Reply # 762750 on 761660

    Hi,

    This is definately getting better. Today I have a boat fully equipped with comfort bobs and bits, weighing in at 4000kg, a slow IOR hull and a sail lacking 4m2 compared to the original bermuda. The handicap LYS for the original Mikkel was 1.07, while I got 1.04 with the junksail. The boat is sailing very close or better than the handicap in a blow,but is  underrigged in winds below 10 knots. To say that I am impressed with the rigs performance would be an understatement. The problem is more in the eyes of the onlookers: A slow boat do not impress! It does not help that I know how close the performance is to the original sail. The "normal" people dont take notice untill you sail away from them. They can still blame it on the hull being a fast boat, but they will have to admit that the sail is bl...y efficient with an old singlehander sailing away from them while he is eating a sandwich and drinking coffee. My hero is a Swedish skijumper by the name of Jan Bokløw. He has a bad stutter and epilepsy. He made the longest jumps, but was punished badly by the judges on the style. I saw an interview with him on TV, and the reporter asked what he thought about the judges giving him low score on his style. He then stuttered: III jjump aand thththey jjudge. How many skijumpers have paralell skis today? How many years and how much money has been put into the development of the bermuda rig? I may be a bit queer, but I see a bright future for the chineese lug. The only downside is that the invention is so old that taking out a patent is impossible, so making a living out of it may be difficult. A hobby for an old geek on the other hand...

  • 30 Nov 2011 00:53
    Reply # 762333 on 761660

    Hi David,

    The problem is that as so much detail is inter-related, writing some bits will raised other questions. I feel it will be better to come out as a complete unit. Even the information to date has misled readers. Take the shelf foot design. When I made it clear that I would not provide a free consulting service for him to build sails and make money, Chris Scanes jumped onto the shelf foot bandwagon but without listening to the full details when I mentioned that I had developed a method of using it.  The net result is that I’m convinced he’s not offering the best rig for the money.

     

    I don’t know what is ‘exactly right’, but I have discovered what works well. The problem is that in the time I have available I don’t find it easy to explain it in such a way that is simple to understand and reproduce. Although I find rig design interesting, regrettably it is rather low on my list of priorities and activities.

     

    It's

    half past midnight, so bed has hit the top of the priority list, so Goodnight all.

    Cheers, Slieve

  • 29 Nov 2011 17:54
    Reply # 762084 on 761998
    Ketil Greve wrote:

    Thank you David,

    With a sailplan of 60m2, the sail would need to be reefed at 10-14 knots wind, and as the "normal" junksail sets better with a reef than fully hoisted, I think I have gotten the answer. The junksail is more top heavy than the pointy ones already, sooo...

    Of course, if you settled for a more reasonable area of 44 sq m, giving a SA/D of about 20, the 4.5m chord wingsail would begin to look like a sensible choice...
    I take the view that if you can make your sail very efficient, you don't need so big a sail. My boat is heavy, and full of cruising gear, books and CDs, and because she is shoal draught, she can't carry a big, high rig. Yet with an efficient rig, I can still make fast passage times with little effort. That, however, has nothing to do with racing, handicapping and the like, about which I know nothing.
  • 29 Nov 2011 17:37
    Reply # 762075 on 762049
    Slieve McGalliard wrote:


    Hi David,

    You wrote, “Slieve reports good performance, but Jef reports a performance that is not yet as good as a Bermudan boat, and it seems to me that everything has to be exactly right.” This is a potentially misleading statement as you are not comparing like with like, just as Bermudan sails look simple but actually are remarkably complicated to build. I built the rig to my own design, and knew what I was trying to build. Jef tried to copy the rig but with incomplete information and has missed the main design feature of the jibs. Therefore he has not ended up with a similar performing rig. I spoke to him on the phone today and it seems clear that part of his design is away off the mark, and I am not surprised he is getting poorer performance than the Bermudan rig. The idea of the split rig is simple, but the detail is not. Similarly with straight forward cambered sails, well designed ones will perform much better than poorly designed ones, though any camber is better than none.

     

    In haste, as ever,

    Cheers,  Slieve.

    Slieve,
    Can you not see the difficulty that we're all labouring under? You say that Jef has worked with incomplete information. It would have been helpful to Jef, and to me, if you could have released interim reports on your progress, for discussion by your peer group, so that we could fully understand what you were doing, and why you were doing it.
    You say " just as bermudan boats look simple but actually are are remarkably complicated to build". Exactly my point about the split rig - everything has to be exactly right. Near enough is not good enough. You are convinced that you know what is "exactly right", and we all look forward to you revealing what that is.
    David.
  • 29 Nov 2011 17:00
    Reply # 762049 on 761660

    Hi Ketil

    All I can say is “Ouch!”  The idea of the Split Rig was to produce a junk rigged cruising boat that would compare favourably with an equivalent Bermudan rigged cruising boat, and I am more than happy with the results. The split rig was not supposed to be a racing rig and I only entered the RTI race to measure the performance against other boats who were also trying to go fast in the same direction.

    You are now talking about going up a gear into the ‘hot ship’ brigade. I have sailed Poppy alongside an X-99 and it is a much faster boat. At 11% longer on the water line and only weighing 60% of the displacement of Poppy yet with more sail area it is always going to win. With a SA/ Disp of over 30 it packs a hefty punch. You will enjoy going fast in such a boat, but your

    LYS will be 1.25 so you may not do well in races. It may be possible to adapt a junk rig to the high aspect ratio required, and it may be possible to devise a sheeting system to deal with the tall thin sail, but you are pushing the limits of our knowledge at this time.

    I know that sailing an X-99 would be fun, and if you could get a tall junk rig to work on it you would enjoy the fun, but you could also be very disappointed when the handicappers calculate your corrected race times. At the moment my thoughts are more modest, like getting a junk rigged FolkBoat to compete with the standard rig.

     

    Hi David,

    You wrote, “Slieve reports good performance, but Jef reports a performance that is not yet as good as a Bermudan boat, and it seems to me that everything has to be exactly right.” This is a potentially misleading statement as you are not comparing like with like, just as Bermudan sails look simple but actually are remarkably complicated to build. I built the rig to my own design, and knew what I was trying to build. Jef tried to copy the rig but with incomplete information and has missed the main design feature of the jibs. Therefore he has not ended up with a similar performing rig. I spoke to him on the phone today and it seems clear that part of his design is away off the mark, and I am not surprised he is getting poorer performance than the Bermudan rig. The idea of the split rig is simple, but the detail is not. Similarly with straight forward cambered sails, well designed ones will perform much better than poorly designed ones, though any camber is better than none.

     

    In haste, as ever,

    Cheers,  Slieve.

  • 29 Nov 2011 15:07
    Reply # 761998 on 761660

    Thank you David,

    With a sailplan of 60m2, the sail would need to be reefed at 10-14 knots wind, and as the "normal" junksail sets better with a reef than fully hoisted, I think I have gotten the answer. The junksail is more top heavy than the pointy ones already, sooo...

  • 29 Nov 2011 04:16
    Message # 761660
    Ketil Greve wrote:

    David,

    If you wanted to make an already fast hull to go fast and close to the wind, would you choose a split junkrig or a wingsail a la Tystie? I have tracked down an X-99 with a blown engine and in the right state of neglect. Unfortunately the price is not right, but I will give an offer. My intention is to compete and to turn a few heads + give some lessons in easy boathandling, as I know that sailing with a junksail gives you a new lease of life sailwise. Being a lazy sod, I can now plan to sail well into my seventies, health permitting.

    I don't think I can answer that question fully. 

    I didn't get the opportunity to sail on Slieve's boat, and I only know what he has told me, pending the publication of his full description of the rig. As a cruising man, I see things that would not suit me, but they are nothing to do with performance. Slieve reports good performance, but Jef reports a performance that is not yet as good as a bermudan boat, and it seems to me that everything has to be exactly right.

    The X-99 is going to need a wingsail with an area of about 50 -60 sq m, to match its bermudan area. My mainsail has a chord of 4.5m, and that is as wide as I would want to go with the tube size of my wishbones (1"). Whilst I think you should be going for the highest possible aspect ratio, a chord of 4.5m would mean a luff length of say 14m -very high, an aspect ratio of 3.1, and too many extra panels (my mainsail luff length is 9.5m). That means, I think, that you would have to make wishbones that are bigger than mine, of larger tube, to get a chord of about 5.5m, a luff length of about 11.5m and an aspect ratio of 2.1 - and we are heading off into the unknown, structurally. The weight is also going to increase, and whatever the aspect ratio, the wingsail is always going to be heavier than a single-thickness sail with straight battens. Will the X-99 stand up to a heavy rig, I wonder?


       " ...there is nothing - absolutely nothing - half so much worth doing as simply messing about in junk-rigged boats" 
                                                               - the Chinese Water Rat

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