Windvane selfsteering gear questions

  • 23 Sep 2012 12:30
    Reply # 1080579 on 673518
    I would also be very interested in an affordable copy of Belcher's book.
  • 26 Mar 2012 20:00
    Reply # 868769 on 673518
    Does anyone have an scanned ebook version of Bill Belcher's book "Wind Vane Self Steering"?  Used ones are going for $50-$200 which I suppose is less than buying a new wind vane but it's more than Mr. Groves spent on his Reggie's parts!  I suspect there might be a pdf copy around, I'd love to have a look at it!


    Last modified: 26 Mar 2012 20:00 | Anonymous member
  • 11 Nov 2011 21:22
    Reply # 747905 on 747856
    Barry & Meps / Stellrecht & Schulte wrote:
    David Tyler wrote:
    So – don't let the whole vane gear droop down, which results in bad steering, but ensure that it's aft end is just a few degrees higher than its forward end.
    I'm risking confusing myself with terminology here. 

    When you say "drooping down," you mean exactly the opposite of your recommendation, right?

    You recommend that the monitor framework be slightly higher aft and lower forward.

    This would make the paddle rake so that the lower end is further aft than the upper end when it is in the water.

    It would also adjust the angle of the air paddle further in a similar direction.

    Is this clear as mud?

    Thanks,
    Barry
    Yes, you got it.
  • 11 Nov 2011 20:03
    Reply # 747856 on 747848
    Deleted user
    David Tyler wrote:
    So – don't let the whole vane gear droop down, which results in bad steering, but ensure that it's aft end is just a few degrees higher than its forward end.
    I'm risking confusing myself with terminology here. 

    When you say "drooping down," you mean exactly the opposite of your recommendation, right?

    You recommend that the monitor framework be slightly higher aft and lower forward.

    This would make the paddle rake so that the lower end is further aft than the upper end when it is in the water.

    It would also adjust the angle of the air paddle further in a similar direction.

    Is this clear as mud?

    Thanks,
    Barry
  • 11 Nov 2011 19:45
    Reply # 747848 on 673518
    No downside. Indeed, there is an upside to raking the vane forward a little. A vane gear needs less negative feedback when sailing to windward, so the angle of inclination of the vane axis can be less. More negative feedback can be needed on a run, so the angle of inclination of the vane axis should be more. Thus, tilting the course-setting axis of an inclined axis vane forward by a few degrees can result in better steering – and this ties in neatly with trailing the servo blade aft by a few degrees. 
    So – don't let the whole vane gear droop down, which results in bad steering, but ensure that it's aft end is just a few degrees higher than its forward end.
  • 11 Nov 2011 19:00
    Reply # 747828 on 673518
    Deleted user
    I'm probably going to mount my Monitor within the next few days, and am going back to a question I asked David a while ago:

    Scanmar recommends mounting the paddle vertical. (I am abou to ask them about this, but haven't heard anything from them yet. I'm just going from their standard instructions)

    David points out that if the effective mounting is with the leading edge of the paddle swept forward, this would make the self-steering system unstable, while there is no penalty for sweeping it back 5 degrees, or even just 1-2 degrees. It should give Flutterby margin in case we are loaded down by the stern.

    I just realized that the Monitor uses the same angle for the wind vane and the servo paddle. Is there any downside to having the wind vane slightly off level, and would it matter which way? I know that it is off-level any time the boat is heeling, but that is different.

    Any thoughts before I start drilling holes?
  • 29 Sep 2011 23:18
    Reply # 711938 on 673518
    Deleted user
    We have a Hydrovane on 'Paradox'. Not used it much yet, but it came with a strong recommendation from her previous owner, and I now note JS is enthusiastic about it. Regarding adding a small tiller autopilot, this link shows how Hydrovane suggest it be done, and why:


    These examples of installations are interesting too:


    Brian Kerslake
    Last modified: 29 Sep 2011 23:24 | Deleted user
  • 07 Sep 2011 01:48
    Reply # 693388 on 673518
    I've posted a few more photos with captions.
  • 06 Sep 2011 05:18
    Reply # 692734 on 673518
    Deleted user
    Thank you all so much for your advice.

    I will now cut and paste all your comments and try to make sense of them!  I'd seen pictures before of the tiller pilot mounted on the pushpit in direct contact with windvane but ours is mounted about 6 feet away under the pilot house roof, along the centreline of the boat, plus there's no room there as we have a traveller in place. It's been really 'doing my head in' trying to figure it out! All I knew was that a heavy duty bungee figured in there somewhere!!

    I have to get this figured out, and when I have, and it's working, I'll post pictures! I have done many searches of the web and only come up with a picture of a monitor set up on the pushpit!

    Thank you so much for what you've all come up with so far!
    Lesley and Rene
  • 02 Sep 2011 08:51
    Reply # 690589 on 673518
    OK, here is the low-down on how to do it with an Aries, from someone who has:

    I have asked, but the device is not supplied by the new Danish Aries maker, but he acknowledges it would be useful and is thinking about it.  I do not know if Helen Franklin has any spare ones, left over from the original sets made in her Pa’s time.  I will ask her.

    Quite simply, to understand this, you have to recognise the top of the Aries just as the input to a powerful steering servo. It does not care what drives the input (pushes the top unit one way or another).  The device consists of:

    • ·         a socket to clamp on the taffrail adjacent to the Aries blade clamp, to hold the pin of your chosen cheap Autopilot;
    • ·         a thin casting which clamps into the Aries clamp, with a horizontal extension, ending in a collet on a swivel, which in turn holds,
    • ·         a bar (ca 30cm long) which screws into the end of the chosen Autopilot arm, thereby extending that arm.

    The effect is that the Autopilot’s operation  pushes or pulls the Aries clamp unit to and fro to achieve its aim of correcting the boat's course.  The power of the Aries does the rest. 

    When setting it up, one must be careful to swivel the Aries head so that it is set at right angles to the travel of the autopilot push/pull, and that the “correct” (lower) side of the Aries clamp is toward the Autopilot unit – if it is the “wrong” (higher) side, then the  unit works in reverse – thus not achieving the effect desired!

     Geoff Pack made one up once (rather than buy a ready made unit) and wrote about it in Yachting Monthly, I recall, long ago.  I may even have his article in a back copy. He got it slightly overcomplicated, but it worked nonetheless.

     One could make one up by simply having an item (plywood?), to be clamped into the Aries clamp, holding the end of the Autopilot arm (how exactly, needs thinking about a bit) - providing you had established a point for fixing the Autopilot in the correct spot – taffrail usually.

     I have searched my pictures for ones featuring the unit in question in use ( a picture being worth a thousand words), but have come up with only three slightly frustrating rather fuzzy ones – extracts from bigger pics - but which may help, so I include below: first (not very clearly) shows clamped casting of unit, and the end of the pilot arm, with extension bar fitted; second shows something of how the extension bar fits the collet and swivel that I speak of; last shows the siting lug for the autopilot (on the taffrail)

    (Actually, he only attached two, which I have put in an album in My Profile, having not yet worked out how to embed photos!)

    I can of course take some specific pictures when next on the boat – and please let me know if you/your contact in the JRA wants me to do that.  I am also happy to give him/her a demo, if they’d like to visit the boat – Solent area this autumn/winter.  I am surprised that this is not a better known thing, as it works really well and is truly a very simple and cheap solution to using the Aries for motoring as an autopilot.

    If anyone needs more info, I'll see what I can find out.  He can't be all bad - he has a cat ketch!

       " ...there is nothing - absolutely nothing - half so much worth doing as simply messing about in junk-rigged boats" 
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