The "LaShunk", A shunting junk, by Balkan ShipYards.

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  • 19 Dec 2018 20:21
    Reply # 6966762 on 6963700
    Anonymous wrote:

    Jeremy, your knowledge of the Oceanic rigs is worth admiring, I never broke them down into so many families....

    I really like the performance of the Delta rigs, they fit fast hulls bang on! so much power delivered by such a simple design is truly amazing. My first experiments with oceanic lateens was in the middle of winter on a near by lake, I was using plastic, 2 sticks and duct tape, I was making sails on the beach in 15 minutes, and they worked!

    The next vid shows my first test ever on a slapped together inflatable that proved to be a huge success! I was battling to learn how to use the boat, the AD-scull, the rig, it took ages to set the sail, because I was still attempting to understand what's going on..... Still it drove me very well and proved that Crab Claws are very forgiving rigs and highly efficient. A huge advantage over the Junk rig, Delta wings will develop drive no mater how wrong your sheeting is, where most rigs stall deltas keep driving. a purely amazing sail.

                      IT JUST CANT BE REEFED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Here's my vid, "U can't Run" rigged oceanic style.... (forgive the boring moments, at the time I didn't edit videos)     https://youtu.be/xcFH5eThi7s

    Later on in life, while building |"Crystal Clear", the never ending build.... Designing as I go..... I just felt I need to finally sail a proa and see what I'm getting into, I built "Why Not?", I rigged him with a single delta wing on a fixed mast, huge success, full of power, can be very fast, I thought I was in seventh heaven.

    Then, a year later I launched "Crystal Clear" and got slapped in the face, the Launch was record breaking, a perfect sail with a perfect return to the bay. On the second sail we almost got ship wrecked, got back winded in a tight spot and got pushed onto rocks, I dropped the hook at the last second and had to jump off and hold her, because the surf was throwing her up and down onto rocks. A friend came and held her, nose to the surf, with my AD-scull, I somehow managed to scull her out through 3 breakers into the blue...

    The hardest sail in my life took place shortly after, less then 10 miles to windward that took ages as i'm steering the fastest she will go into the wind doing around 65 degrees to windward while both my feet were cut to shreds from the shells and muscles that where on those rocks, there was blood everywhere.... I got back winded about every shunt, it was a stiff force 5 blowing, I would brail up the sails and use the sculling oar to turn her around, there were times when I thought I couldn't make it..... Turning her high bows trough the eye of the wind demanded all I had.....

    Never Again. Never!!!

    I feel, for a proa to work in a white mans hands, it ether needs to be Bermuda rigged or simple reefable rigged......... A single sail, less drag then a schooner, low stress and easy to reef...... Well, that's what I'm working on. The simple reefable type, a junk rig.

    Since I have a few thousand cruising miles with a Bermuda, it's good, still I don't like it.  It's expensive and very high load.

    Yea Jeremy, bottom line, since we're both here, each with his own ideas, both came from lateens both feel the same way, then this may probably be the way................

    BUT I DO LOVE CRAB CLAWS!!!!

    Keep shunting.....

    rael.

     

     

    Rael, following your narrative  about lessons learned, yep, I get where you are coming from.

    To better explain my position, another shipwreck  narrative is perhaps acceptable.... back inn the 1980's, when the world was a little different (for myself, at least) and a country like France had made it clear that I could only land there as long as I had a pre-paid air ticket (for a flight out) to my country of origin.

    Since my mate at the time had a family home there and was determined to visit the country, we landed on the Algarve coast of Portugal (covered by a visa I had obtained in London).

    Caught in a corner by weather conditions and a rock pile(newly created for a marina development, and not shown on charts of the area), there was but one option to get out without a motor.

    Shunting was out of the question with that(Junk rigged) boat, so the rock pile claimed a victim.

    Recriminations go down to the political and emotional level, with the motor (or rather the lack, thereof) being the pertinent technical factor.

    So once there is a motor to take care of those 'rocky' situations, the other critical item of gear is a board(or two) that moves CLR aft of the rig's effort centre, at the same time as providing direction control.

    Whatever the chosen rig, a shunter is definitely going to need 2 such (direction control) devices.

    I have to say that I am with the others like Arne on this point, and having worked out a system to enable  the above, so the rig options are open-

    Going the junk route with a single rotating(but reef-able) sail on a tallish mast is one of them.

    Then there is the option of 2 shorter masts, with two, four or even five sails, that can all be dropped as a way to manage reefing.

    You mention BR, and sure, this is another option. 

    Last modified: 19 Dec 2018 20:43 | Anonymous member
  • 17 Dec 2018 23:21
    Reply # 6963700 on 6315328

    Jeremy, your knowledge of the Oceanic rigs is worth admiring, I never broke them down into so many families....

    I really like the performance of the Delta rigs, they fit fast hulls bang on! so much power delivered by such a simple design is truly amazing. My first experiments with oceanic lateens was in the middle of winter on a near by lake, I was using plastic, 2 sticks and duct tape, I was making sails on the beach in 15 minutes, and they worked!

    The next vid shows my first test ever on a slapped together inflatable that proved to be a huge success! I was battling to learn how to use the boat, the AD-scull, the rig, it took ages to set the sail, because I was still attempting to understand what's going on..... Still it drove me very well and proved that Crab Claws are very forgiving rigs and highly efficient. A huge advantage over the Junk rig, Delta wings will develop drive no mater how wrong your sheeting is, where most rigs stall deltas keep driving. a purely amazing sail.

                      IT JUST CANT BE REEFED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Here's my vid, "U can't Run" rigged oceanic style.... (forgive the boring moments, at the time I didn't edit videos)     https://youtu.be/xcFH5eThi7s

    Later on in life, while building |"Crystal Clear", the never ending build.... Designing as I go..... I just felt I need to finally sail a proa and see what I'm getting into, I built "Why Not?", I rigged him with a single delta wing on a fixed mast, huge success, full of power, can be very fast, I thought I was in seventh heaven.

    Then, a year later I launched "Crystal Clear" and got slapped in the face, the Launch was record breaking, a perfect sail with a perfect return to the bay. On the second sail we almost got ship wrecked, got back winded in a tight spot and got pushed onto rocks, I dropped the hook at the last second and had to jump off and hold her, because the surf was throwing her up and down onto rocks. A friend came and held her, nose to the surf, with my AD-scull, I somehow managed to scull her out through 3 breakers into the blue...

    The hardest sail in my life took place shortly after, less then 10 miles to windward that took ages as i'm steering the fastest she will go into the wind doing around 65 degrees to windward while both my feet were cut to shreds from the shells and muscles that where on those rocks, there was blood everywhere.... I got back winded about every shunt, it was a stiff force 5 blowing, I would brail up the sails and use the sculling oar to turn her around, there were times when I thought I couldn't make it..... Turning her high bows trough the eye of the wind demanded all I had.....

    Never Again. Never!!!

    I feel, for a proa to work in a white mans hands, it ether needs to be Bermuda rigged or simple reefable rigged......... A single sail, less drag then a schooner, low stress and easy to reef...... Well, that's what I'm working on. The simple reefable type, a junk rig.

    Since I have a few thousand cruising miles with a Bermuda, it's good, still I don't like it.  It's expensive and very high load.

    Yea Jeremy, bottom line, since we're both here, each with his own ideas, both came from lateens both feel the same way, then this may probably be the way................

    BUT I DO LOVE CRAB CLAWS!!!!

    Keep shunting.....

    rael.

     

     

  • 16 Dec 2018 09:14
    Reply # 6961614 on 6315328

    please excuse some of the strange grammar and odd statements in the previous posting of mine in this thread... In order to reply with as little delay as possible, the message was draughted in the reply box, and when edited, words and parts of sentences went missing.

    Having no time to start all over again, the decision was made to just post as is.

  • 15 Dec 2018 21:07
    Reply # 6961266 on 6957416
    Anonymous wrote:

    Good stuff Jeremy,

    I didn't know the shunting lateen was such a 'late' invention, The Sprit rig was the Pacific standard, how it was shunted is beyond me.......

    A shunting split rig is a hand full if you're short handed. I learned that the hard way, shunting Crystal Clear was about as hard as pulling a U turn with a semi trailer.... I never imagined it would be so difficult. The problem with "CC" was that it was hard to bring her to a stop during the shunt, as one sail would always keep driving her while I was flipping over the other one, resulting in her ending up backwinded. I finally learned how to shunt her, but it was hard work and there was no way I could do it alone. That kinda broke my spirit, forcing me to go deeper and deeper into the whole concept of shunting and build smaller proas that are easier to test sail and cheaper to make mistakes on..........

    As for fouling sheets on the tack, I can't see a solution except the 'standard' double sheet solution.... I'm happy with it even though the 'lazy sheet' is left drooped over the sail's tack... Still not ideal, since the more there is, the more can go wrong... 

    I totally agree with you about those big double canoes, I guess every play has it's audience, and as long as someones paying the show will go on......

    Yea, thanks for reminding me......

    "Keep Shunting....."

    .....and all d best.

    rael.



     

    Rael, there are a number points to cover and to make a start, the double sheeting is probably the best one to kick off on, just as you are doing or have done.

    This is in any case required whether the rig is to be a junk  type or a split Oceanic one.

    Drooping the sheet tails over the tack part/luff edge, has got to be the way to go, although with a junk sail it would be better to hang the sheets onto the mast  (where mast and boom cross) and this is where euphroes could be  useful bits of gear.

    leaving aside the junk rig (because there is so much development still to come) we could consider the advantage that a SS(split sprit) presents over a SCC(split crab claw).

    So the SS is essentially a rig that keeps the mast standing fixed(eliminates raking), with spars rigged so as to be more easily managed- mainly because of reduced dimensions over a single sail) and also because there is no need to adjust mast rake when ends are changed(shunted).

    This works with a spritsail (as compared to a CC, because(in the case of a shunter) the mast, spars and the sail can be handled independently, but still linked when shifting CE.

    Having a sail that can be hoisted or dropped on a stationary mast, is probably the single important factor in Pacific rig development for handling in all weather, whilst the mast stands erected....where the junk rig excels, concerning items of early technology.

    We can be sure that the Tongan Fijiian drua shunters provide a date for change over from hoisting a Lateen yard(by using a halyard), on the double canoe rigs of the central Pacific, which subsequently rendered the prop type mast obsolete.

    Hundreds years years before this, the early Spanish(Magelan etc.)  had noted the 'Latino or Lateen' sails of the Micronesians, and it would be an odd thing if the wide-ranging Oceanic seafarers remained oblivious to how the different regions configured their different but technologically similar rigs.

    Even so, before Spanish contact, turning blocks (those with sheaves) would have been an unlikely rig item(unless we accept Chinese influence), so we need to see sail handling being possible with nothing more than crutch headed masts and spars- making the getting  on/off of sail with smaller SS type rigs a no brainer option... no doubt the reason why it was the big Lateen that had to wait for running rigging advances noted by Cook.( before shunting  showed up in Tonga, where the Lateen sail had grown big)

    Note also, that it was  the eastern Pacific shunters that had the ladder-like rat lines to the masthead.

    As well, the mast was stepped midway between the hulls, and had a prop in the place  of a w/ward shroud, that acted in  safety against backwinding on the rig.

    I am doing away with with the prop, because the rig will stand equally as well as a Wharram catamaran rig (of equal beam and mast height dimensions) with synthetic shrouds only.

    For clarity in explanation, it would serve well to describe how an SO Pahi rig works/would work on a Wharram, if less rocker, for reduced yawing tendency is included as a required characteristic.

    Then, we should be able to agree that the canoe will hold alignment to wind direction while shunting-because of yaw resistance.

    Held steady against spinning in the wind, the sail's leading edge spar hangs down with the tack ends alongside the safety rail on the lee(of lee hull).Here the sheet ends are conveniently to hand... hooked onto the luffs.

    There is a linked tack line between the leading edge spars, which is continued toward each each end of the lee hull.

    Now, as per the original sprit sail, the luff can be be hauled up or down this leading edge spar, while the sprit is managed separately.

    My rig will have a tubular headboard in place of the  loose concave sail head, and  a halyard system for hoisting it.....making single handed sailing a possibility.

    Going (caught) aback can/should thus be handled by scandalising or dropping the sail, while the rig remains standing.

    Sheeting becomes the complicated issue, which might or might not be made easier on a balance Junk boom with a euphroe taken out by a 'messenger' type endless line... if in the instance a split aero Junk sail is used on one mast.

    Thinking of such complications has me leaning toward a wishbone boomed luff-spar with Junk reefing. soft wing, that has reefing lines and halyard rotating with the sail.

    Cost is evidently as important to you as it is to me, so this is why I am happy to continue with the SS option, in this discussion.

     




    Last modified: 16 Dec 2018 09:08 | Anonymous member
  • 12 Dec 2018 21:38
    Reply # 6957416 on 6315328

    Good stuff Jeremy,

    I didn't know the shunting lateen was such a 'late' invention, The Sprit rig was the Pacific standard, how it was shunted is beyond me.......

    A shunting split rig is a hand full if you're short handed. I learned that the hard way, shunting Crystal Clear was about as hard as pulling a U turn with a semi trailer.... I never imagined it would be so difficult. The problem with "CC" was that it was hard to bring her to a stop during the shunt, as one sail would always keep driving her while I was flipping over the other one, resulting in her ending up backwinded. I finally learned how to shunt her, but it was hard work and there was no way I could do it alone. That kinda broke my spirit, forcing me to go deeper and deeper into the whole concept of shunting and build smaller proas that are easier to test sail and cheaper to make mistakes on..........

    As for fouling sheets on the tack, I can't see a solution except the 'standard' double sheet solution.... I'm happy with it even though the 'lazy sheet' is left drooped over the sail's tack... Still not ideal, since the more there is, the more can go wrong... 

    I totally agree with you about those big double canoes, I guess every play has it's audience, and as long as someones paying the show will go on......

    Yea, thanks for reminding me......

    "Keep Shunting....."

    .....and all d best.

    rael.



     

  • 12 Dec 2018 02:19
    Reply # 6956177 on 6315328

    Just trying to help you Rael, not troll or denigrate your efforts.

    I feel it is fair to say the following, since I have on (another forum) encouraged you to concentrate on a single sail rig, rather than the split type.....Thing is, after many years of research, I have discovered how the early Polynesian double canoe was rigged for shunting.

    Written description  of Oceanic double canoes and rigs only goes back to a little before Captaincies Cook's time, and then, he provided some confusing info, when, on his second voyage he began describing the 3 sided sails he saw (over in the west), as lateen sails, whilst having ignored the shunting rigs seen (over in the east), on his first voyage, which were no doubt the Oceanic sprit type. 

    So, what I have discovered, is that there was a split rig used on the early double canoes, and that the change-over to the Micronesian shunting lateen, which happened and was duly recorded by Cook during his time in the Pacific. makes it looks though a leap in rig development took place at that time.

    This so called new rig, was a Micronesian development on the single outrigger, to create the  flying proa, and was carried into the Tonga Fijii region during the late 18th century.

    Earlier, the double canoe had carried a sprit sail.

    Terminology is important in that that there is a practical difference between a 3 cornered sail having 2 edges supported by spars-- firstly when it is apex down and has a sprit boom and a concave head, that then makes it an Oceanic sprit sail, or otherwise, when it it has a peaked yard(as the luff) and a leach between the head and the clew, while the foot is along the boom.

    As soon as  a 3rd spar or mast is added, either the rig has the ability to swing through the wind as a shunter, or become fouled by the mast as a tacker...We know that the tacker option was not successful in competition to/with the shunter version( Tongan Tongiaki was displaced by the Kalia). But we have mostly been kept in the dark about how things panned -out when the sprit rig was shunted.

    Based on our current knowledge of shunters ( which Cook did not have), we know that moving the CE toward the bow, is the way to adjust relative to CLR, to achieve sail balance.

    Things should work out just fine with a split rig.... if we get over the hitch where the  sheet gets fouled by the tack end of the spars, and this is possible when the spar, that is tied/laced to the luff, is not actually a yard, but a spar with it's upper end 'received in the fork  at the top of the mast' ( so it is described in Canoes of Oceania).

    When two such (fork topped) masts are present ( as with the Tuamotu Pahi), then the sails can be swung independently or in tandem, to shift CE.

    As well, there is the immersed blade  - described on record as a "long horizontal rudder".

    Having both a shifting CE and variable lateral plane to accomodate shunting, we are in the same game as Oceanic people Island hopping eastwards.

    But some of them relied much on paddle propulsion, so kept their canoes configured to head primarily in one direction and carried two-spar rigs to use as auxiliary sail, when conditions proved favourable..... these canoes have somehow been labeled as the 'great voyaging double canoes',which are now rigged with Bermudan style 2 spar rigs(including headsails), and called "traditional. 

    Last modified: 12 Dec 2018 04:49 | Anonymous member
  • 29 Jun 2018 04:08
    Reply # 6348935 on 6315328

    I wouldn't waste that nice cloth on that sailplan either :) just thought you might like to try a quick and dirty sail before you made an awesome one. I'm already thinking about a smaller, higher aspect split junk rig.

    Thanks for posting the vids, some great Ideas I may borrow there :) 


    Bill




  • 28 Jun 2018 09:04
    Reply # 6346792 on 6315328

    Bill, thanks for the link, that is the Balkan spirit of sail making.....

    I like the dart style of doing things. Still I will probably go with the way Arne builds sails, just because, the cloth I got (for a present :-) high class 100% polyester, lite and very strong is cut to 120 cm. That's how long the role is, it's perfect for my panel width, forcing me to stitch up panel to panel, so will take Arne's advice this time. 

    As for your proa dreams.... they can come true easier then u think! and they are so much fun!!!!! Crab Claws are so cool, they just don't fit cruising, in my opinion.

    I built my second proa "Why Not?" in 5 days and went sailing, from a pile of ply to a sailing boat, rig and all in 5 days! Then I started modifying him, painting him and so on. Below is a video of how we slap together a day sailor for dime...... Why Not?

    https://youtu.be/jACkJPf7yKY

    As for rigging.... It dont get much simpler then this! Green house plastic, a couple battens, a bunch o'screws and some string........ Crab Claws are brilliant, very low stress so anything works. Out in the pacific, for a fishing boat, leave the atoll at sunrise come back sundown..... That's what u want, simple cheap and very robust...................

    Rigging "Why Not?"

    https://youtu.be/vH0x-tZUMY0

    Just start small, keeping complication and expenses to a minimum, if u like, then go big.

    All d best.

    Keep Shunting, Balkan ShipYards. 

  • 26 Jun 2018 17:45
    Reply # 6343377 on 6315328

    Rael

    Thank for taking the time to describe your experience with the crabclaw, maybe I'll give it a try someday but for now I'll take it off my todo list and move it to my wish list :) Maybe someday I'll build that 30' deep v vaka with a 6" beam I've always wanted and put a massive crabclaw on it :)

    never occured to me that reefing would be extra difficult on a Proa, that's good to know.

    the junk rig is surprisingly light, my 70 sq ft sail bundle is 13 pounds and the mast weighs 8 pounds, my battens are maybe a bit light, would certainly be way to light on a heavier boat, my dingy comes in at just under 300 pounds with crew.

    the junk sail I made cost about $50 Canadian or roughly $38usd and took about 10 hours of planning and 8 hours of work, it'll be a bit more once I get all the bits of rope figured out I'll replace them with new rope so probably about $75 if I decide to use spectra for the halyard.

    here's a tutorial for a quick and dirty cambered polytarp junk sail, I used the smaller one and made the panels 4 inches narrower, added a foot of rise, a bit more camber, and left the gurney flap off. I also cut the darts instead of sewing them and used two sided carpet tape and staples on both batten halves to hold them together along with a lot of screws.

    I doubt it works nearly as well as a properly made junk sail, but I'm having a ton of fun with it, and in both light wind and high wind conditions I wouldn't have gone out in with any of the other sails I've tried.

    I keep wondering how hard it would be to make a "Junked" crabclaw, it'd basically be a fanned junk rig with a very short luff, maybe a club to run the batten parrels around and control the spread of the yard/boom, lol, probably more of a brain fart then an epiphany, but one has to think about something while waiting for the wind to blow :)


    Bill



  • 25 Jun 2018 18:44
    Reply # 6341173 on 6315328

    Bill,

     My days with Crab Claws are over. On a cat I may consider a Crab Claw, but not on a proa. They are amazing! cheap and easy to make, they work very well, they look superb!!! They will go to windward, yet off the wind they are turbo charged.....

     But, they cant be reefed! They can be depowered though, so out in the pacific one could get by, though I sail land locked waters, the Med, The Black sea... Here things change all the time, it can get rough very fast, and who knows what's going to be down wind.....

    A depowered Crab Claw at best may reach, so with leeway you are still going down wind.... In the vast Pacific no problem, here, you may get crushed if you cant sail to windward!

    Some of the best Crab Claw cruisers on bigger Wharram catamarans, drop one sail on the big deck and raise a smaller one, they have 3 or 4 sails lashed to the boat. That's the best way, since a smaller sails works much better then a reefed one. 

    Reefing them is just not easy and far from effective, hence the boom becomes a mess (with all the extra sail lashed onto it, once reefed), it disturbs the air flow by creating heavy turbulence as the wind exits the sail. The Boom that was low down, the more you reef the higher it goes, putting weight and CE higher and higher......

    Depowering would be pulling on the brailing lines and raising the boom, by doing so the shape of the sail is destroyed and it really helps. But you can forget about going to windward!

    Bottom line, Crab Claws are good sails for constant conditions, and open space. 

    The Gibbons, again cant be reefed, so no Thanks. Never tried it, but shunting seems very weird too, as you will be moving a huge wing over your head..... just too weird.

    As for the Bermudan, you're probably bang on! it's a racing rig, made for upwind work, and since most sailors think that what wins races must be good, that's what the manufacturers supply.

    Having two rigs at each end of the vessel is too much. Narrow canoes must be kept lite, also the extra windage will hurt performance.....

    You are lucky that you have a junk, I never sailed one, but I feel that it may solve the biggest problem proas have, REEFING!!! A proa with it's rig to one side and the sail hovering above the sea, is a bit too risky for my liking.... falling off is too easy. Cats and tris are better with their rigs in the middle and tons of deck to the sides.

    I want to just ease the halyard, and say "job done!" only junks can do that!!!

    Time will tell......

    Rael. 

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