Zombie factoids

  • 21 Aug 2017 21:36
    Reply # 5040530 on 5039913
    Scott Dufour wrote:

    The real question here, though, is how easily can a bumble bee reef when the jelly really pipes up?  It's also all well and good to say empirical evidence shows that these insects actually do fly to windward, but how often do they really do it, vs just firing up their tiny diesel motor? Practical considerations on the insects ACTUAL use of its ability is just as important as demonstrated capacity.


    Well, honey bees certainly make to windward: their obsessive diligence to bring back pollen to the hive forces them to do so, poor things; but only, as far as I've observed up to about F4.  As for bumble bees, I have to say that I've seen them buzzing furiously, but relatively ineffectively against a stiff breeze.  If they veer off course they slide off downwind like they have a spinnaker set.  As they have to get back to their burrows, I can only assume that they are clever at finding lulls and eddies to take advantage of.  They don't seem very good at reefing at all, but I guess they could fly full and by and tack back that way - at least it doesn't matter to much if they heel right over.  When it comes to butterflies, there seems to be no way of assessing their intended flight path until seconds before they alight.  On the other hand, some of them make mammoth migrations, and you can't really imagine them heaving to until the wind comes fair. 


    At the speed at which some insects fly, I suspect their tiny diesels must be turbo-charged.
  • 21 Aug 2017 15:00
    Reply # 5039913 on 5014302
    Deleted user

    The real question here, though, is how easily can a bumble bee reef when the jelly really pipes up?  It's also all well and good to say empirical evidence shows that these insects actually do fly to windward, but how often do they really do it, vs just firing up their tiny diesel motor? Practical considerations on the insects' ACTUAL use of its ability is just as important as demonstrated capacity.

    Last modified: 22 Aug 2017 17:34 | Deleted user
  • 20 Aug 2017 17:46
    Reply # 5038878 on 5014302
    Brooksby's Law: A statement that begins with "scientists say" or "science says" is false.

    A scientific experiment to determine if insects can fly: 1. Take a sample of insects.2. Observe whether they can fly. 3. Some of them can. QED

    The smallest insects are effectively swimming through jelly, because viscosity does not scale, so applying large scale aerodynamics is bound to fail. Insect wings are unlikely to be relevant to designing sailing rigs more than 5mm tall.

    A rather nice video about scaling: https://youtu.be/f7KSfjv4Oq0

    Last modified: 20 Aug 2017 17:53 | Anonymous member
  • 06 Aug 2017 21:56
    Reply # 5015515 on 5014302

    Bonsoir

    On the front head of a Russian aerodynamiqe institute in the early 60th it was written (I have nor evidence of it) "In the actuel knowlegde of aerodynimique the cockchafer should not fly!"

    and junkrig should not be performant....

    Eric

    Last modified: 06 Aug 2017 21:58 | Anonymous member
  • 06 Aug 2017 09:51
    Reply # 5014701 on 5014302
    Anonymous

    No, I didn't intend to support the myth that in theory some insects (usually bees) "can't" fly, and actually neither did Bunny Smith.

    What he claimed was that "contrary to scientific analysis", insects could fly, and that they did so by means not explained by the conventional aerodynamic theory of 'typical' wings such as those of birds. He believed that structures in insect wings which he called 'turbulators' created vortices to generate or increase lift.
     
    In 2009 Oxford University scientists put bumblebees in a wind tunnel with some smoke and high-speed cameras. The study showed that bees flap their wings in an unusual way, creating vortices to generate lift. Although Smith's theory appeared to be on the right track thus far, these vortices seem to be created by the way in which bees flap their wings - something that sails are not designed to do - rather than by structures on their wings.

    Smith's error seems to have been not so much in his understanding of insect flight, as in his belief that the flight of insects had anything to do with the performance of a junk (or any other) sail.

  • 06 Aug 2017 09:23
    Reply # 5014698 on 5014302

    It isn't that "science says that insects can't fly", it's that "people with an incorrect or incomplete understanding of the science say that insects can't fly.

    At the time, I was sceptical, as well as others. I was pretty sure that IFT hadn't got anything to do with any improvements in performance, putting them down to camber that Gp Capt Smith wasn't fully aware of.

  • 06 Aug 2017 06:01
    Reply # 5014626 on 5014302

    Robert, I think you will find that in the Boat of the Month article, the webmaster was paraphrasing Bunny's thinking.  I don't think he was actually making a scientific assertion and does, in fact say, that Bunny's ideas were considered controversial at the time, as they are now.

  • 05 Aug 2017 22:57
    Message # 5014302

    There is a set of alternative scientific facts that keep rising from the dead, no matter how often you whack them over the head.  There is the nonsense claim that goldfish can only remember for five seconds.  Another just got quoted in the description of the boat of the month: "insects that are, according to aerodynamic theory, incapable of flight"

    A debunking of that story can be found here, saying the calculations were for gliding with a rigid wing: http://www.snopes.com/science/bumblebees.asp.  I have seen a dragonfly glide, but many insect really can't.

    Another debunking I read some years ago additionally claimed that the original calculations neglected the viscosity of air.  The smaller a wing, the more viscosity matters to flow.  That is why I have always been a bit wary of the insect flight theory of junk rigs: they are quite a lot larger than insect wings.  For a scientific paper on the topic, see http://dragonfly.tam.cornell.edu/publications/2005_ARF_Wang.pdf

    Could we slay that "science says insects can't fly" zombie one more time on this site?

       " ...there is nothing - absolutely nothing - half so much worth doing as simply messing about in junk-rigged boats" 
                                                               - the Chinese Water Rat

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