Measuring junk sailing performance

  • 21 Jul 2017 19:53
    Reply # 4988515 on 4913961

    H'mmm. From the Sailtracker and PRO Sailtracker app descriptions in the Playstore:

    "Sailtracker computes polar based on angle and true wind speed, calculated from apparent wind and boat speed obtained by GPS (COG)"

    Not boat speed obtained from a log. This app would only be of use in non-tidal waters, if so, but there may be something lost in translation, the app is of Spanish origin.

    [edit] the iOS app 'NMEAremote' appears, as far as I can tell, to include data from the log as well as from GPS, and includes background logging. It costs £18.99, less than PRO Sailtracker.

    Last modified: 21 Jul 2017 20:51 | Anonymous member
  • 21 Jul 2017 12:43
    Reply # 4987730 on 4913961

    Here's a possible set of instruments, including the necessary wifi link to iOS, Android, Mac or PC:

    http://digitalyacht.co.uk/product/windsense/ - an anemometer, with an NMEA 0183 output to an NMEA 0183/wifi interface - all for £450 + carriage.

    DST800 smart depth/speed/temperature transducer with NMEA 0183 output that will connect directly to the above interface - £221 including carriage.

    I'm tempted. I didn't think a set of instruments plus the interface to a computer/tablet/phone could all be bought at this price.

    Last modified: 22 Jul 2017 08:38 | Anonymous member
  • 21 Jul 2017 09:46
    Reply # 4987566 on 4913961

    That's good news!

    A few random thoughts:

    It would seem to be easy to mount an anemometer on the pulpit, on a short pole attached to one of the commonly available clamp- on antenna mounts.

    A rotating cup anemometer would be vulnerable during transportation. A ROWIND Ultrasonic Wind Transducer, for example, or the Airmar equivalent, would be more robust. 

    I don't think a transom mounted log impeller will suit many sailing boats. A through hull impeller mounted on a (faired) pole at the bow would put it in clear water, avoiding calibration problems.

    Do we need a display head? The Rowind outputs an NMEA sentence - isn't what we need simply two "smart" transducers that output NMEA directly into something like the Anenomind? The Android/iOS app then provides a display, if needed.

    A pole that carried both transducers would have to be about 3 metres long - more difficult to transport. Also, Weaverbird needs the centre of the pulpit to be kept clear, to deploy the anchor, and I suspect other boats will have similar restrictions.

    So I come to the view that there might be two poles, each 1.5 metres long with an antenna mount that clamps onto a 1" tube (the pulpit, pushpit or a stanchion), with a transducer at its other end. The wind transducer needing no further support, but the water transducer needing an extra lashing or strut, as it will experience more load from the water flow.

    Weaverbird can find enough power for an Android phablet, and (marginally) for an iPad. She cannot power a laptop without adding an inverter, and would in any case object to having a Windows device aboard. It would seem that an Android or iOS device would do all that's needed.

    Something is needed to take an NMEA sentence and transmit it onwards via wifi/bluetooth to an Android/ iOS device. If not Anenomind, what else is there that will do this? [edit] found the answer - a wifi router 

    Last modified: 22 Jul 2017 08:38 | Anonymous member
  • 21 Jul 2017 05:20
    Reply # 4987430 on 4913961
    Anonymous

    The committee has voted to proceed with the purchase of the sail performance data logging and analysis system. Details are contained on the Committee Room, by this link.

    http://www.junkrigassociation.org/decisions/4975440

    Last modified: 21 Jul 2017 05:24 | Anonymous
  • 18 Jul 2017 11:23
    Reply # 4982097 on 4913961
    Anonymous

    I'm delighted to see such an interesting range of thoughts on the proposal, and the other plans in the pipeline - see my earlier comments on a small trimaran as a better two boat test bed than a dinghy. Of course, if the two boat idea does happen, they could also be ideal as part of the measurement programme, the same boat with many different rigs, provided they weren't constantly capsizing.

    I'm also happy to be able to report that a number of members have already volunteered their boats (and their time) to enable performance measurement to take place. They currently represent roughly 1% of the membership so far! I have approached some others with "interesting" rigs but I'm still waiting for replies, and that is just in the UK.

    The noble folk who have already committed are:

    David Tyler, offering 2 rigs on his Hunter Duette "Weaverbird" if we can test her in September this year when he will be in Falmouth with his current rig

    Edward Hooper, with the split junk on his Splinter "Amiina" based in Poole, and possibly some sister ships there with Bermudan rigs.

    Lynda & Dave Chidell, in Falmouth with their Newbridge Pioneer "KRKA" with hinged battens.

    Iain Fraser Grigor with a cambered panel sail on his "Solitaire", based in Scotland

    Rodney Whitworth with his flat sail Sunbird 32 junk schooner "Gung Ho", based near me in Ipswich, so a convenient boat for me for setting up and testing the gear initially.

    Robin Blain with his Swallow Bay 20 "Gigi", with hinged battens, based in Dorset, but mobile so may be able to combine testing with "Amiina", or even possibly in Falmouth

    Chris Gallienne is also independently seeking to measure and record performance on his boat, perhaps with two different rigs, so might also participate, which would also be an interesting opportunity to compare two measurement systems.

    That is without any attempt to recruit volunteers in NZ, where we would expect to see at least some. Our thought is the kit can be couriered to NZ for their summer season. We would welcome approaches from anyone else (in either hemisphere) interested in joining the performance measurement programme.

    There are things we can do to adjust for the fact we are measuring different boats, for example we could correct the boat speeds to a "standard" waterline length as a simple first order correction. If we chose a standard waterline length of 25ft, convenient because the square root equals 5 and it is a mid range size, then a 16ft waterline boat would have its speed multiplied up by 5/4, and a 36ft waterline boat would have its speed multiplied down by 5/6.

    We can of course get even more complicated and consider sail area/displacement ratios, and even produce vpp (computer generated) polars and compare the measured performance with those, but that would be complicated, and it would be very time consuming and challenging to get the right (accurate) data to put in to produce the performance prediction. However it can be done at a later date, provided we get some performance data to start with. With no data, we have nothing objective to work on.

    Last modified: 18 Jul 2017 12:46 | Anonymous
  • 18 Jul 2017 08:23
    Reply # 4981960 on 4981955
    Deleted user

    These are the two approaches that make most sense to me. Either a number of one design hulls, with a variety of rigs, sailing against each other at the same time; or one boat, with a variety of rigs tested consecutively. Parallel versus serial, if you like, but aiming to eliminate unwanted variables, and getting down to assessing the relative merits of the rigs, not the boats.


    i think that the only worthwhile way to do this is as David has suggested, that is to trial differint junk rigs, and probably a Bermudan rig, on the same boat, in the same location, and probably with the same crew. otherwise there are so many variables introduced that any results will not mean much. For example my sailing of 'Footprints' in my local sailing environment, and with my background of experience is going to be vastly different than say a more conventional yacht sailed in a different part of the world with  a skipper who has had a different type of sailing experience.  

    But the match race between Footprints and Shoestring is drawing closer! Shoestring is now moored just a couple of hundred metres away from Footprints. Two boats to the same design, one with a David Tyler fan shaped camber panel sail, the other with a Hasler pattern flat sail. And this is the country which just won the Americas Cup, did I hear a rumour that the next Americas Cup may be with foiling junk rig monohulls???


    Last modified: 18 Jul 2017 08:23 | Deleted user
  • 18 Jul 2017 08:14
    Reply # 4981957 on 4981840
    Honsec JRA wrote:

    Since Alan posted his ideas on the Forum he has received requests from members who would like their boat performance to be measured. This is an interesting development and maybe we could all learn from the findings. The gear can be couriered around the world to help members measure and possibly improve their individual sailing performance. The measuring equipment could be employed at a junket where 10 boats might try out the instruments. This concept will not appeal to every junk rigged sailor but some will relish the opportunity to find out how to get the best performance out of their rig and at the same time add their results to a database. Personally, I would like to see how my boat goes to windward – am I constantly pinching her, is the mainsheet in too tight?

    This is an important point. Quite apart from comparing different rigs, there is the question of optimising one particular rig. It is not easy to tell whether one is sailing one's boat at her best without instrumentation. 
  • 18 Jul 2017 08:08
    Reply # 4981955 on 4981840
    Honsec JRA wrote:

    .... The idea that we came up with was for the JRA to promote a one design dinghy. It would primarily be a tender, light weight, easy to build, easy to row, economical to build and could be rigged with any junk rig you wanted. Members could take them to junkets and have fun sailing them against other members. Crew and rigs could be swapped. We realised that a small dinghy was far from ideal for measuring performance but felt that something could be learnt and it would be good fun. We were mindful of the story of when member, Roger Scott, rigged a split junk rig to his Laser – all fine until he capsized and the tangle was epic! Members wanting to try out new ideas for junk sail plans could experiment at low cost with the one design dinghy. These thoughts were then taken to the committee.

    At this time, and before we had posted anything on the Forum, Alan Boswell came in with his proposal. This sort of shunted our small time dinghy idea sideways. As everyone agrees, however we are talking about 2 different concepts. One about comparing different rigs and one about measuring a boat’s performance. The only time these could be combined is if David Tyler measures Weaverbird’s performance now and after he makes and sails with a wingsail. It will be the same boat and same helmsman. As we know David might have another rig in 2019?!


    These are the two approaches that make most sense to me. Either a number of one design hulls, with a variety of rigs, sailing against each other at the same time; or one boat, with a variety of rigs tested consecutively. Parallel versus serial, if you like, but aiming to eliminate unwanted variables, and getting down to assessing the relative merits of the rigs, not the boats.

    Handicap racing doesn't do that. Edward's performances in the RTIR are an excellent way to put one particular form of junk rig in front of a wide audience, but they do nothing to help establish whether that one particular form of junk rig is "better" than another, in some way. Handicap racing is a lottery: given two different boats with the same handicap, it is highly likely that one will be a better heavy air performer, the other a better light air performer. And in the RTIR, one is trying to race against a few boats of the same or similar type and size, on a racecourse that is cluttered up with hundreds of other boats. 

    Club racing, every weekend, would be a better way to go, to establish one's performance against other, bermudan-rigged, boats of the same class; but again, this tells us nothing about whether "junk rig A" is "better" than "junk rig B". Unless, that is, different forms of junk rig are used consecutively on the same boat, a number of races with each before changing over.

    Data logging on a number of different boats with a number of different rigs is a long term project. The payback would take a long time coming, but eventually it would come. Comparative testing, on one design boats or on the same boat with different rigs, is still a medium term project. But it would be a project that would be of great assistance to anyone intending to build a new junk rig. Faced with all the variations of junk rig that we now have, which to choose? Cambered panel? Hinged battens? Cambered panel plus hinged battens? Wing sail? Split? Split wingsail, even? High AR or low AR? Fanned or parallelogram panels? Some of the merits of each rig are subjective and can only be given a "scale of 1 to 10" rating (ease of reefing and furling, ease of tacking and gybing, for example), but others can be and should be measured and documented (power to windward, for example).

  • 18 Jul 2017 06:26
    Reply # 4981840 on 4913961
    Anonymous

    In response to the wide range of opinions recently expressed I would like to briefly try and explain how we got here. I think the following Maori proverb is very appropriate:

    Ka mua, ka muri is a Māori proverb that expresses a great truth around a simple image. The image is of a person walking backwards into the future. It suggests that the past is clearly visible but the future is not, that we have imperfect information for the road ahead, but also that this is a natural state of affairs. Let us look back for clues to the way forward, but also understand that the future is unwritten. The future comes out of the past but will not be identical to it. The only unchanging thing is change.

    At the AGM there were 8 items brought up from the floor for general discussion. The committee has discussed every item and attempted to make progress on some and defer others. Some ideas require the spending of JRA funds, whilst others can be achieved for free. The idea from Jim Creighton, for example, about an animation of how a junk rig works could well be an expensive exercise. On behalf of the committee, I wrote to Jim and he has recently responded with a detailed proposal for the committee to consider. He will post his thoughts on the Forum so that everybody will have an opportunity to comment and we will take it from there.

    The idea brought up by Pete Hill has also been keenly discussed by the committee and before Pete left for French Polynesia we had 2 meetings to discuss the way forward. The second meeting was attended by the Chairman, the Membership Secretary, myself, Pete Hill and 2 other knowledgeable members. The idea that we came up with was for the JRA to promote a one design dinghy. It would primarily be a tender, light weight, easy to build, easy to row, economical to build and could be rigged with any junk rig you wanted. Members could take them to junkets and have fun sailing them against other members. Crew and rigs could be swapped. We realised that a small dinghy was far from ideal for measuring performance but felt that something could be learnt and it would be good fun. We were mindful of the story of when member, Roger Scott, rigged a split junk rig to his Laser – all fine until he capsized and the tangle was epic! Members wanting to try out new ideas for junk sail plans could experiment at low cost with the one design dinghy. These thoughts were then taken to the committee.

    At this time, and before we had posted anything on the Forum, Alan Boswell came in with his proposal. This sort of shunted our small time dinghy idea sideways. As everyone agrees, however we are talking about 2 different concepts. One about comparing different rigs and one about measuring a boat’s performance. The only time these could be combined is if David Tyler measures Weaverbird’s performance now and after he makes and sails with a wingsail. It will be the same boat and same helmsman. As we know David might have another rig in 2019?!

    Since Alan posted his ideas on the Forum he has received requests from members who would like their boat performance to be measured. This is an interesting development and maybe we could all learn from the findings. The gear can be couriered around the world to help members measure and possibly improve their individual sailing performance. The measuring equipment could be employed at a junket where 10 boats might try out the instruments. This concept will not appeal to every junk rigged sailor but some will relish the opportunity to find out how to get the best performance out of their rig and at the same time add their results to a database. Personally, I would like to see how my boat goes to windward – am I constantly pinching her, is the mainsheet in too tight?

    The committee is considering a capital budget of ₤3,000 for purchasing the equipment and an operating budget of ₤600 in year 1, ₤400 in year 2 and ₤200 in year 3. The project would be subject to an annual review. If the committee decides in principle to accept this proposal with the above budget a technical sub-committee will be set up to consider the equipment purchases and the operation of the performance measuring programme. At all times the committee will act in accordance with the Constitution and comply with the financial transparency requirements. The committee will reach a decision looking to further the aims of the JRA and its members.


  • 18 Jul 2017 00:34
    Reply # 4981509 on 4913961

    Thanks for your replies Chris and Slieve.

    At AGM Pete Hill called for a technical sub-committee to be set up to compare the different forms of rig extant and in development.  This appeared to be given credence and acceptance by the response from the chair.  The idea of a "fleet" of small boats was an added possibility, not an intrinsic element of the original request.  In my previous post I expressed a desire for some organisation around this idea of a sub-committee, and in light of the different proposed approaches discussed here I thought it prudent for such a sub-committee to explore those ideas, and choose which one(s) to follow.  I was not aware of any feedback from the committee on discussions they might have had around this theme in the three months since AGM, hence I put forward my suggested strategy.

    Chris, you suggest that the Committee decide on Alan's proposal, and if accepted to then set up a technical sub-committee.  To me what you suggest would more accurately be called a working party, since the technical decisions will already have been made by the Committee, which largely consists of (correct me if I am wrong) people who (like myself) have little capacity to make an informed judgement on the issue.

    Chris, I am not seeking to prevent any project, though I would suggest that as well as being "feasible" it should also be beneficial.  I note the pejorative terms "foolish" and "churlish" - is it foolish to seek value for money? then I am foolish - is it churlish to ask for clarification and assurance of useful outcomes? then I am churlish.

    I am not averse to spending the Association's funds, but I am averse to getting little in return for it.  Historically the JRA has made some unwise expenditures : the Chapman thesis that Slieve refers to ; the "charter" JR boat, KRKA ; the Lasers ; the commercially edited magazine.  It is easy to be wise after the event, and I am not here criticising anyone for mistakes which no doubt seemed like good ideas at the time, but I hope we can learn from the past and be a bit better at getting good outcomes.

    Slieve shows that not every Member visits the Committee Room of the website.  While I was Secretary I was at pains several times to repeat on more general fora something which had been placed on the Committee pages, to help Members find them.  This no longer seems to happen, e.g. the AGM minutes appeared on the General Meetings page unannounced.  No criticism, just a thought.

     

       " ...there is nothing - absolutely nothing - half so much worth doing as simply messing about in junk-rigged boats" 
                                                               - the Chinese Water Rat

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