Measuring junk sailing performance

  • 06 Sep 2017 21:16
    Reply # 5066332 on 4913961

    Well, you've got some pretty competent people helping you there, Alan.  There isn't any innovative idea that doesn't have some teething problems.  Best of luck with fitting and running it all - but keep the receipts for the guarantee!!

  • 06 Sep 2017 14:16
    Reply # 5065620 on 4913961
    Anonymous

    It has been very quiet on this channel recently, but things have been happening behind the scenes. The working group of Rob Prince, Chris Gallienne, David Tyler, and myself have spent a lot of time and many emails discussing what equipment to buy, and concluded that ultrasonic speed detection was the most accurate. Consequently we have purchased a DX900 boat speed, leeway, and water temp sensor, from Airmar, and an LC7 wind and direction sensor from LJ Capteurs.

    The boat speed is said to be accurate to 0.01 knots, and the wind speed to 0.25 knots. Wind direction accuracy is to 1.5 degrees, which is the best we could find within the budget. We have developed an instrument mounting "rig" which can be moved from boat to boat and which has the boat speed sensor in a faired strut or "paddle" and the wind sensor on a mast, both of which can be "tacked" fairly easily - we hope.

    We have bought an HP X2 hybrid tablet/laptop for its extended battery capacity, and because we wanted a windows based system to use the free polar diagram software "Polauto".

    To get the data into the computer requires a multiplexer to receive the NMEA 0183 signals and combine them for feeding to the computer. Here we hit a snag because the first unit we tried, a Quark A031, we could not get to function properly. After Chris Gallienne and I both tried and failed, we sent it back, and we are now getting a unit from V-Boat, a Swedish company, which we hope will arrive this week.

    This has meant we have missed the opportunity to measure Weaverbird and KRKA in Falmouth which was scheduled for this week. We will reschedule when we have the system up and running.

    It may have been quiet on the surface, but we have been paddling like crazy underneath.

    Last modified: 06 Sep 2017 14:19 | Anonymous
  • 30 Jul 2017 10:47
    Reply # 5002574 on 4913961

    For those who do not regularly visit the Committee Room, the setting up of a sub-committee was announced here yesterday. 

  • 29 Jul 2017 10:32
    Reply # 5001443 on 4913961

    Arne,

    Correct on both counts. The ultrasonic sensors are more accurate and have better resolution than paddlewheels, which can only register one pulse per revolution. On a fin keel boat, the best position is 300 - 600mm forward of the keel. Ultrasonic sensors do need bubble-free waterflow, and this gives the best chance of achieving that.

    Last modified: 29 Jul 2017 10:33 | Anonymous member
  • 29 Jul 2017 10:02
    Reply # 5001435 on 4913961
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    David,

    that looked like an interesting kit. With no moving part outside the sensor, I gather they use ultrasound and Doppler-effect, or something like that? BTW, the sensor, should that sit on the centreline just forward of the keel? I am afraid, I am rather blank on this, as I have mostly sailed ‘un-plugged’.

    Arne


  • 29 Jul 2017 09:15
    Reply # 5001421 on 4994451
    Arne Kverneland wrote:

    Better disregard GPS, but keep measuring the leeway angle

    Arne


    The technology now exists to measure the boat speed and leeway to an accuracy of 0.1 knot.

    It is available at a price within the budget agreed by the JRA committee, so I'm inclined to think it's the way to go. It can be retrofitted into some of the skin fittings used by some existing paddlewheel logs, but not all. It does mean that a prospective test boat owner must be prepared to fit a compatible skin fitting, as this is the only sensible way to install it with an accuracy of one degree. Without that accuracy, reliable leeway data cannot be gathered. 

  • 25 Jul 2017 20:53
    Reply # 4994451 on 4913961
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    Better disregard GPS, but keep measuring the leeway angle

    If one aims for producing fairly accurate polar diagrams, I don’t think that GPS data is of much use, unless it is guaranteed that one is sailing on tide-less water. On tideless water, GPS data (Course and speed over ground) can be used to find the boats' leeway and save one from fitting a leeway indicator.

    If one recons that there is some tidal currents running most of the time, I think it would be better to measure a combination of apparent wind speed and wind direction (relative to the boat’s pointing angle), boat speed through water, and leeway angle. From these measured data one can calculate a true wind speed, wind angle and true sailing direction “over surface”. This way a current of 2-3, or even 6 knots will not matter as long as it doesn’t fluctuate a lot.

    Disregarding or just guessing the boat’s leeway angle will anyway make the calculated results pretty useless, in particular if shallow-draft, short twin-keelers are to be tested. I have met a few of them on the fjord, and some of them goes almost crab-wise.

    Actually, I wonder what level of accuracy Alan is aiming for here. Since we easily can detect a difference in boatspeed of 1%, compared to another boat, I guess one should aim for an accuracy of 1-2% of the computed polar diagram as well. In that case one does not get away without an accurate way of  finding the boat's leeway, and thus the true sailed angle to the true wind over surface. 

    I'm glad that is not my job.

    Arne

    PS: I bet that a good windvane self-steering would be a good helper, as it can lock the boat onto a constant apparent wind angle. 


    Last modified: 28 Jul 2017 11:17 | Anonymous member (Administrator)
  • 25 Jul 2017 10:13
    Reply # 4993354 on 4913961
    Anonymous

    I think Eric has an interesting point here. In fact, to get the true wind from the apparent wind you need the speed and direction of movement of the boat RELATIVE to the WIND, so you should ideally take into account leeway, and current, although you can argue the current is already taken care of in the apparent wind speed and direction.

    The apparent wind direction is, of course, measured relative to the yacht's centreline, which is the HEADING, but this is not necessarily (or usually) the direction of the boat's motion relative to the water, thanks to leeway.

    The simplest and traditional approach as suggested by Paul is to measure apparent wind speed and direction, and boat speed, and to ignore leeway, or make a correction for an assumed leeway, which is what we did in India.

    In theory, Eric's approach could potentially be more accurate, as it takes leeway into account more or less instantaneously, and leeway is really tricky to measure on board because the angles are so small, and there is so much noise from the boat's motions.

    The problem with Eric's approach is that it brings the current into the mix, and it is difficult to take it out again, because you can't tell which part of the COG difference from the heading is due to leeway, and which part due to current. It also requires accurate and simultaneous compass readings

    At the moment, we are taking the simple approach, and aiming to record apparent wind speed and direction, and boat speed, as accurately as we can. We are considering ways to measure leeway as well, but it is tricky and we may just make the crude assumption that the boats being tested are all roughly similar types which can be expected to make similar leeway. We might use GPS to try and observe some typical leeway figures when we manage to find some slack water. Then we can correct the results for assumed leeway, or not, as we choose.

    We have calculated that provided the wind speed is greater than the boat speed, the change in the true wind angle for leeway of 5 degrees (on the large side) is less than 2.5 degrees, and if the wind speed is twice the boat speed the error is less than 1.53 degrees, so the error created by ignoring leeway is not huge, and about the same as the accuracy of the best wind instruments (we can afford) which is +/- 1.5 degrees.

    I could go on... but I won't!

    Last modified: 25 Jul 2017 10:33 | Anonymous
  • 25 Jul 2017 01:45
    Reply # 4992919 on 4991881
    Eric Andlauer wrote:

    Bonjour

    I don't understand it the same way. In modern navigation and autopilot systems the true instantaneous true wind (speed and direction) is computed out of the instantaneous apparent wind provided by the anenometer and wind direction indicator and the boat speed provided by the GPS to have a very accurate true wind data. On the most sofisticated systems they use a strapped  down  laser inertial platform (as on the airliners) to correct instaneous airspeed values from the mast movements.

    Remark : In case of strong tide stream it may induce a small error on the true wind value.

    Then the polar is computed out of the boat speed (over watter) measured by a speedometer;  the heading, measured by a compass (usually fluxgate), and the true wind data.

    Eric

    GPS speed is speed over the ground not speed through the water, which is what is needed to compute a polar diagram.
  • 24 Jul 2017 16:06
    Reply # 4991881 on 4913961

    Bonjour

    I don't understand it the same way. In modern navigation and autopilot systems the true instantaneous true wind (speed and direction) is computed out of the instantaneous apparent wind provided by the anenometer and wind direction indicator and the boat speed provided by the GPS to have a very accurate true wind data. On the most sofisticated systems they use a strapped  down  laser inertial platform (as on the airliners) to correct instaneous airspeed values from the mast movements.

    Remark : In case of strong tide stream it may induce a small error on the true wind value.

    Then the polar is computed out of the boat speed (over watter) measured by a speedometer;  the heading, measured by a compass (usually fluxgate), and the true wind data.

    Eric

    Last modified: 24 Jul 2017 16:09 | Anonymous member
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