Sailmaking: shaping the "rounding"

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  • 18 Jun 2017 20:29
    Reply # 4906321 on 4886040

    Thanks, Arne. And yes, I have the ribbon ready to go on for telltales!


    Cheers,

    Pol

  • 16 Jun 2017 13:12
    Reply # 4903666 on 4903622
    Anonymous member (Administrator)
    POL BERGIUS wrote:Thank you Arne,

    I'm glad you suggest keeping the full camber in the lower panels. Don't want to be lacking in power, and it will save me some work too!

    So I will have R=320mm in P7-P4, then 220mm on the lower edge of P3 (transitional) with 120mm at the top edge of P3, going to 100mm on both edges of P2 and 50mm on both of P1 - if that sounds OK?

    Cheers,

    Pol.

    Yes, that makes sense to me.

    Arne

    PS: Don't forget to fit one telltale at the leech of each panel. They are very useful in keeping one from over-sheeting the sail (the most common trim error that sailors do).


    Last modified: 16 Jun 2017 13:17 | Anonymous member (Administrator)
  • 16 Jun 2017 12:36
    Reply # 4903622 on 4886040
    Thank you Arne,

    I'm glad you suggest keeping the full camber in the lower panels. Don't want to be lacking in power, and it will save me some work too!

    So I will have R=320mm in P7-P4, then 220mm on the lower edge of P3 (transitional) with 120mm at the top edge of P3, going to 100mm on both edges of P2 and 50mm on both of P1 - if that sounds OK?

    Cheers,

    Pol.

  • 16 Jun 2017 09:26
    Reply # 4903519 on 4886040
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    Pol and Erik.

    I have found that it is enough to make the rounding in panel 3 from top (the transition panel) with asymmetric barrel shape (See the sailplan of Ingeborg, sheet 3). Since the panel edges to be assembled are laid on top of each other and then stapled together before sewing, it is easy to get it right.

    What I don’t recommend for the rig of Annie, is to gradually reduce the camber upwards in the parallelogram panels. Annie is not over-rigged, and needs all the muscles the sail can produce.

    Arne


    Last modified: 16 Jun 2017 09:27 | Anonymous member (Administrator)
  • 16 Jun 2017 08:33
    Reply # 4903475 on 4886040
    Erik,

    Thanks for your advice. It is a while since I've looked at the use of broadseaming to add camber, so maybe I should again. Arne's sails work, though, although he does urge caution following his experiences with his early "barrel-cambered" sails when reducing the rounding panel to panel. With my templates lying ready, I think it is probably only the panels 6 and 5 (where the R reduces from 320mm to 220mm) that will be of concern. I'll be up close to that pretty soon I hope!

    Cheers,

    Pol.

  • 16 Jun 2017 05:29
    Reply # 4903242 on 4886040
    Deleted user

    Pol - consider changing the rounding within a panel, i.e., match the rounding between adjacent panels.  

    The alternative of connecting two curves with different R's but the same length curve is that the side with the smaller R will have a larger L and thus more wrinkles once on the batten.  I think... :)


    Erik

  • 15 Jun 2017 23:30
    Reply # 4902913 on 4886040
    Hi Arne and all,

    On reflection, this is a very long-winded way of asking a simple question which I ask from towards the end of line 5 to line 9 of the next paragraph!

    I am following your suggestions to use barrel rounding to achieve camber, and reducing that rounding/camber as we go from Panel (P) 7 with 320mm of "round" (R), up to Panel 1 where R is only 50mm. I've only just absorbed the message in your instructions - yes, I'm pretty slow, and far too excitable at the same time - reminding sailmakers that each reduction in rounding between adjacent panels results in a shorter edge. From the 320mm of round in our P 7 and 6 to the 220mm of P 5 and 4, we lose about 27mm of length in the edge. My pea brain can't really envisage how this loss appears in the sewing of P6 and P5 together, as of course they still follow the batten length of 5900mm, but that extra has to go somewhere! I then started thinking "what if my templates' rounds don't match, or in other words what if the curves are different shapes"? Certainly I have tried to let the fibreglass batten spline lie in an even curve, but the 6m long table is not dead flat so the spline springs freeer on some bits of the table than others which means that I had to manipulate the spline a little here and there with weights to get it fair. Was I building in variations in my curves by doing that? This got me thinking how maybe I would have done this whole template-drawing-out-thing differently if I'd thought of this before....

    .....and that is to very carefully make a template out of really good plywood or maybe a double thickness of painter's (lining) paper for the panel with biggest round (P7 and 6), making sure that the straight edge really is straight and that the curve is just as fair as possible. Having cut the cloth for 7 and 6 using that template, I would then have reduced the round on this good durable template by simply calculating that 220mm, the new round, is 68.75% of 320mm, the old round. I then make a mark every, say 300mm along the template showing the new curve at 68.75% of the width of the template at each 300mm station, safe in the knowledge that the form of my curve for R 220mm will match as close as possible the form of the curve for R 320mm, even if the 320 one isn't perfect.. BTW I took care to measure the widths at each station with the steel rule reasonably perpendicular to the curve, and not perpendicular to the straight edge of the template.  (For the four lower panels the template for the parallelogram part is thick lining paper, with the rounding template made from horrible fluffy hard-board material, not nice crisp plywood. The fluffy stuff I cut with a small cheap Japanese pull saw which has very fine teeth and an incredibly thin blade and is ideal for following a thin line accurately. The three panels above are all one piece of lining paper which includes the rounds).

    As I go up the sail, the differences in the edge length between panels will become less and less. I've tried to even out these differences as much as possible. But where DOES that extra rounding go, especially the 13mm or so from P6 to P5?!

    Cheers,

    Pol.


  • 13 Jun 2017 23:41
    Reply # 4898924 on 4897879
    Deleted user
    Arne Kverneland wrote:


    PS: Of course, I forgot about this first time I did the measurement, but I was kindly reminded about it...


    I did the same and the wondered as to the proper manner.  Thanks for confirming.  


    Erik


  • 13 Jun 2017 08:32
    Reply # 4897879 on 4886040
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    Erik

    Since the batten pockets are sitting on the ‘outside’ of the sail on starboard side, I must subtract the batten thickness. If you look at that photo again, you will soon agree with me that camber starts at the black batten pocket seam, so the distance from the stick (boathook) to that seam should be subtracted from the initial measurement.

    Arne

    PS: Of course, I forgot about this first time I did the measurement, but I was kindly reminded about it...


  • 13 Jun 2017 05:47
    Reply # 4897783 on 4886040
    Deleted user

    Arne -  you have several time compared your designed camber with real life measurements. In the pictures ,you use a "stick" to span the lower and upper battens at approximately the max camber point and measure the depth at the mid point.  When you determine the camber, are you including the battens or are you subtracting them out? In other words, is the initial measurement adjusted for the batten diameter or batten pocket size?

    We are sewing test panels here in sunny California...


    Erik

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