Comparisons of aircraft's wings to a boat's sail

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  • 08 Nov 2016 20:04
    Reply # 4370962 on 4362251
    Deleted user
    Darren, you are of course correct on all counts apart from assuming I have expertise! We call Claire and her contemporaries 'single surface' as the point of the small amount of double surface is to allow the point of maximum camber to be well forward on the wing, to give a favourable direction (at the expense of magnitude) to the lift vector. The leading edge (yard equivalent) is buried in the sleeve, a la Footprints. By definition alone, 'double surface' (or the wingsail equivalent) has the 'mast' buried, as can be seen here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YgzMhXFDd3Y  It may surprise some to find that the double surface wing has less lift - around 65% - of the single surface wing, resulting in a plethora of disadvantages (more space required to take off). The flip side is that drag is reduced by close to 50%, which also has disadvantages (more space required to land).

    On a personal note, I hope to give the impression that I don't consider that knowledge of theory has much value while practical experience is priceless. 'In theory there is no difference between theory and practice; in practice there is.' Arne, David, Annie etc. etc. have a wealth of valuable knowledge learned in the classroom that matters.  

  • 06 Nov 2016 21:45
    Reply # 4367043 on 4365096
    Bryan Tuffnell wrote:Darren, we share a common interest. You may be interested in this:
    http://www.junkrigassociation.org/Sys/PublicProfile/30361922/Photo/

    58379604/58379858/0?dh=0&cppr=0

    'Claire' is homebuilt, tandem two seat, registered New Zealand aircraft (her sail was built by an Australian sailmaker). You'll see a single surface, flexible wing with camber sewn into panels defined by aluminium battens, a 'mast' to 'leeward'. She was built with clear goals, and her performance as measured against those goals is excellent. I flew around southern New Zealand with a passenger in this machine, landing in paddocks, beaches and small airfields.

    I wasn't thinking about Claire when I talked about sails on a home-built aircraft, but she looks great.  It's nice to hear from someone who has actually taken a project like this from design to fruition.  I wonder if you can really call it a single surface airfoil though?  It looks like the leading edge to 20% aft or so is two-surfaced with something inside separating the cloth and providing a better leading edge shape (in much the same way as what David Tyler has done on his wing sails).

    You have expertise in aerodynamics and I do not, but my impression was that the field of aeordynamics was moving from empirically dominated development to something that was more of an iterative process that starts in computer modelling and is then verified with wind tunnel testing and ultimately a full-size prototype.  I don't think sailing has seen anywhere near this kind of development, with maybe the exception of wingsails in the racing fleets and some equivalent attention to keel design.  Sailing doesn't offer the same kinds of monetary returns that aircraft design does, but perhaps with ever-growing computing power making new tools available to amateurs, or an industry such as shipping wanting sails designed, we could maybe see some more progress.  Of course, we are probably already past the 80-20 point in design.


  • 06 Nov 2016 20:34
    Reply # 4366979 on 4362251

    Sorry for the delay, Chris, but you've already had a few good answers. The "How Sails Work" is by Paul Bogotaj appears good, though I've only skimmed it so far. I do like the two line explanation of Upwash, which is generally misunderstood and ignored, whereas a good foil shape will enhance it and put it to good use.

    In an effort to simplify things, think of anything the sticks out in an airflow to be an airfoil, in that it foils the wind. The wing of an aeroplane is pushed through the air by its engine, a glider is pulled down by gravity, but due to the shape of its airfoils slices forward as it descends. When the wind blows the sail of a boat produces a force which drives it and adding the wind speed to the boat speed results in an apparent wind blowing past the rig. A round post planted in the ground also 'foils' the air, and when the wind blows there is a resulting force pushing it straight downwind. We call that drag.

    Now if we alter the cross sectional shape of our pole cleverly and angle it so that it deflects the airflow sideways the force produced will angle off a bit to one side, giving a total force at an angle to the wind flow, which will have a measurable strength and direction. It therefore is a vector. For convenience we split this vector into two components, the one angled straight down wind, which we call drag, and the other at right angles to the apparent wind, which we call lift. The ratio of the lift to the drag can vary from zero for our round post to about 60 for a glider wing stuck in the ground at the right angle and the right wind speed. A sailing rig will be in between these extremes as the wind varies in strength from naught to gale force and the angle can vary by 360°.

    It matters not whether we are talking about wings, sails or poles as they all 'foil' the wind and produce more or less lift and drag. The clever trick is for us to get the best lift and drag figures to suit our particular requirements. A zero L/D is fine on the dead run which is why the flat junk rigs will go downwind, but by introducing camber and a slot the split junk still has some airflow deflection on the dead run and will produce a usable L/D and therefore a greater total force for better performance, eve on this point of sail.

    It is easy to see that an aeroplane in steady level flight requires the lift to equal the weight and the engine thrust to equal the drag. The boat sailing to windward is not so clear, but if you think of the boat sailing at 45° to the wind with the sail set out at 20° to the centre line then the apparent wind hits the sail at about 25° with the drag going down wind and the lift at right angle to the apparent wind. Now if we add the two vectors to get the total wind force again and then split it again but with one component along the boats direction of sailing and the other at right angles we end up with a small driving force which pushes the boat forward (and therefore up wind) and a bigger force pushing it sideways forming leeway and making it heel.

    Now to get the best windward performance we want the biggest driving force and the smallest sideways force. Working back through the vectors, this means we want the biggest lift and the smallest drag which means the best Lift/Drag ratio.

    Getting lots of lift is easy as you can increase the area and put lots of camber in the sail, but the drag will also go up and you won't gain. The key is to get good lift and minimise the drag which is not so easy. The total drag is made up of a number of separate types, form drag, skin friction and others, but the one that I have been talking about is induced drag which is the main problem and is a by product of making lift. You can't have one without the other, unfortunately.

    The commercial aviation industry has spent millions on this problem and now we have airliners with a glide performance comparable with early gliders! We used to practice total engine failures in the Boeing 737 simulator, typically losing both engines at 30,000 feet over Clacton-on-Sea and gliding to land at Heathrow. We always ended up high and had to fly two or three orbits to lose the height and judge our final approach. That calculated out at about a 1 in 20 glide angle, or 3° slope. The two seat Slingsby T21 glider used by the ATC in the early days had a glide angle of 1 in 21, about the same, but the difference being that it had a best glide angel at about 70 knots whereas the B737 was best at 250 knots.

    The same type of improvement is being made in sailing rigs for racing, but the cruising boats are away behind. The flat junk rig was at the bottom of the pile when it came to L/D ratios, but the later cambered rigs are seriously better. The fact that the split junk rig in Poppy can heel the boat to windward is a clear indication how far forward the total force vector is and just how good the L/D ratio is. In the right hands this rig will embarrass the pointy headed brigade. Where I could outperform most similar boats I never keep it up from beginning to end of any race. Edward is up against hot race tuned boats, which ain't fair, in my opinion, and which does not show off his real speed.

    I hope that covers the first and second bullet points in the first mail in this thread.

    For the third point I agree that the dynamic range of an aeroplane can be low about two or three to one and a sailing boat's can be infinite, but that makes the challenge more interesting, but not any different.

    The difference in apparent wind at top and bottom of the rig has been discussed and when actually calculated does not make that much angular difference, in practice being only a few degrees! The Bermudan rig needs twist because the sail chord is reducing with height so it needs to twist to present the correct entry angle with change of height. The mast also ruins the L/D as the chord shortens. Poppy, with the parallel luff and leech shape sail performs well with negligible twist, and Edward has arrived at the same conclusion. Don't be misled by the inefficient Bermudan rig.

    Chris, you ask, “Why then do aircraft fall out of the sky fairly catastrophically when all engine power is lost?” They don't. Unfortunately modern pilots have become so dependent on avionics and autopilots that they have forgotten their basic training. It scares me rigid. Every commercial pilot must practice engine failures on take off every 6 months, and we used to practice failures on approach, but few airlines will do more than the financial minimum and include failures in cruise and other interesting tricks. Pity, because it was great fun (and often quite exciting!)

    Sorry about the long-winded simplified expatiation, but some might find it helpful.

    Cheers, Slieve.






  • 04 Nov 2016 22:54
    Reply # 4365096 on 4364492
    Deleted user
    Darren Bos wrote:

    Primarily, sails differ in that you have a flexible, single-sided airfoil (different constraints mean that most aircraft abandoned these long ago).  In a bermudan rig (where most of the research has occurred) the sail also differs from a wing in that it is stuck behind a turbulence creating mast and has a pointy top that is perfect for creating tip vortices.  I remember once reading an article of a sailor who had built an ultralight, it was pretty-much two masts laid on there sides with the fuselage acting as a boom for both masts.  It flew, but also suffered almost all the problems you find with sails.

    Darren, we share a common interest. You may be interested in this:
    http://www.junkrigassociation.org/Sys/PublicProfile/30361922/Photo/

    58379604/58379858/0?dh=0&cppr=0

    'Claire' is homebuilt, tandem two seat, registered New Zealand aircraft (her sail was built by an Australian sailmaker). You'll see a single surface, flexible wing with camber sewn into panels defined by aluminium battens, a 'mast' to 'leeward'. She was built with clear goals, and her performance as measured against those goals is excellent. I flew around southern New Zealand with a passenger in this machine, landing in paddocks, beaches and small airfields.

    In terms of aerodynamics, almost nothing of the arcane theory or calculations that abound in aerodynamics went into her design. Like most small aircraft, experience has built up a sufficient body of knowledge to inform the design sufficiently to give a fair confidence in outcomes, although surprises occur. Also like most aircraft, 'Claire' had design goals that differ wildly from those of a sail: yaw stability, strong pitch stability, slow stall speed, very high lift, rapid roll rate, low roll pressures, strong roll-yaw coupling and other factors that bear no relation to sailing. No easy reefing, sheeting angles, soft gybing etc!

    In the field of airfoils, the maths is extraordinary - Karman-Trefftz transforms, Navier-Stokes nonlinear partial differential equations and the like take some head-hanging sessions to follow, and some equations that attempt to define aerfoil behaviour have yet to be solved. That's physics, and abstruse, and makes very little practical contribution to design. For common applications more useful information can be gained from a wind tunnel than a computer model.

    The 'real' scientists in the field of aerodynamics are the ones with grass-stained knees; in hydrodynamics they have salt-encrusted eyebrows. The doers are the ones developing the useful, practical body of knowledge. 

    Last modified: 04 Nov 2016 22:57 | Deleted user
  • 04 Nov 2016 15:34
    Reply # 4364492 on 4362251

    Chris you clearly hit a point of interest, given the rapid number of replies.  As a shade-tree aerodynamicist (biologist in real life), I enjoy the discussion.  I'd have to agree with both David and Bryan's contrasting views.  I'd summarize this as, the modern field of aerodynamics describes most of what we observe, but clearly there is still much that is unknown and yet to be improved.  It was only relatively recently that we learned that the tip vortices that most sailors and aircraft designers try to minimise are in fact necessary for providing about half of the lift of a flying insect.  

    I think most of the differences between sails and wings have been described here.  Primarily, sails differ in that you have a flexible, single-sided airfoil (different constraints mean that most aircraft abandoned these long ago).  In a bermudan rig (where most of the research has occurred) the sail also differs from a wing in that it is stuck behind a turbulence creating mast and has a pointy top that is perfect for creating tip vortices.  I remember once reading an article of a sailor who had built an ultralight, it was pretty-much two masts laid on there sides with the fuselage acting as a boom for both masts.  It flew, but also suffered almost all the problems you find with sails.

    Most of us here are working with aerodynamic tools/knowledge that are one or more decades out of date.  I suspect we will see further improvements in sails based on a modern understanding of aerodynamics.  It will be interesting to see what happens.  I suspect new materials will make it possible to give us sails that look more like wings.  However, just like the wings of flies surprised us, perhaps the future of sails is something more interesting.  Americas Cup seems one place that this development may occur, but for the Junk crowd I suspect the development being done to give supplementary and eco-friendly propulsion to cargo ships might be even more applicable.  I wouldn't discourage anyone from tinkering and clearly here at the JRA the efforts of a few folks have really improved our rigs.  Perhaps when we start to pay the real price for fuel we'll see enough money put into sail design to see the same progress that has been made in other areas. 

  • 04 Nov 2016 01:20
    Reply # 4363528 on 4363206
    Deleted user
    Chris Gallienne wrote:
    Bryan Tuffnell wrote:
    Aerodynamics defy accurate calculation; we make non-real-world assumptions in order to make best guesses.

    ...Oops. We don't know why.

    Bryan

    Thank you for one of the sanest expositions I have heard of any science, let alone aerodynamics. I wish a few more of my erstwhile fellow oceanographers had been capable of similar levels of sanity/honesty.

    Although:

    ...gravity is the propulsive force; for a given angle of attack, speed is proportional to the square root of the weight of the aircraft.

    Why then do aircraft fall out of the sky fairly catastrophically when all engine power is lost?

    Chris

    Aw thanks, Chris, I knew ignorance was bliss...

    ...but I can't think of an aircraft that flies aerodynamically (as opposed to ballistically) that doesn't become a glider when power is lost. The average wide-bodied jet (a Boeing 777, say, or even better, thanks to its much better wings, an Airbus) glides very well with its engines dead, helicopters autorotate nicely, and all pilots are taught in training to land 'deadstick'. Personally (here's a confession!), having had four engine failures and occasionally having chosen to switch engines off to soar, I can vouch for the gliding abilities of three different powered aircraft. There's an issue of pilotage - if an engine dies the pilot must lower the nose of the aircraft to maintain its angle of attack, and a failure to do so may result in a stall or spin. This is drummed into a pilot during training. Otherwise, glide on...

    In order to maintain level flight, the amount of thrust from the propeller must equal drag - because both are forces, 100 pounds of drag needs 100 pounds of thrust to overcome it and maintain altitude. To take off or climb, time comes into the equation, which means power and not thrust is required, one horsepower lifting 550 pounds one foot per second. The ratio of lift to drag is exactly the engine-off glide angle at a given angle of attack.

    Similar relationships exist in a sailboat. For instance, the ratio of underwater lift and all forms of drag give leeway, corresponding to an aircraft's engine-off glide angle; the efforts from the sail are quantifiable and correspond to weight; the speed of your yacht is a measure of the developed power. Given a couple of numbers as a starting point, the other figures could be calculated. For instance, if the total drag of your boat is 20 kg and the leeway is 5.7 degrees, we can calculate the lift of the keel and underbody as being 200 kg. To remove all leeway, you'd need an engine and propeller that produces 20 kg of thrust. Etc.

    Last modified: 04 Nov 2016 01:51 | Deleted user
  • 03 Nov 2016 21:08
    Reply # 4363206 on 4362251
    Deleted user
    Bryan Tuffnell wrote:
    Aerodynamics defy accurate calculation; we make non-real-world assumptions in order to make best guesses.

    ...Oops. We don't know why.

    Bryan

    Thank you for one of the sanest expositions I have heard of any science, let alone aerodynamics. I wish a few more of my erstwhile fellow oceanographers had been capable of similar levels of sanity/honesty.

    Although:

    ...gravity is the propulsive force; for a given angle of attack, speed is proportional to the square root of the weight of the aircraft.

    Why then do aircraft fall out of the sky fairly catastrophically when all engine power is lost?

    Chris

  • 03 Nov 2016 20:48
    Reply # 4363188 on 4362251
    Deleted user
    Chris Gallienne wrote:

    In attempting to explain the aerodynamic principles of sails, many people refer to the principles of aerofoils derived from aircraft wing theory. Whilst the fundamental theory of aerofoils in undoubtedly relevant to both wings and sails, the conditions in which the two aerofoils operate are so very different that there have always been questions (doubts) in my mind about how appropriate the comparisons are.

    My understanding of aerodynamics is not good enough to provide answers. Chris, I worked in fluid dynamics and aircraft design and have to say neither I nor the science can provide much in the way of answers - our knowledge of the science aerodynamics has improved little since the Wright Brothers, and most of what we've subsequently learned has come from practical work rather than a better grasp of the theory. Look at how we calculate lead on a sailboat: we assume the boat is on a broad reach in flat seas with no heel and the sails sheeted hard in, and the CP is located at the CE. Aerodynamics defy accurate calculation; we make non-real-world assumptions in order to make best guesses.

    A new aircraft with higher aspect ratio, less washout, less sweep and a better airfoil section than its predecessor was built. On paper it had a point and a half improvement in lift to drag ratio. In practice, its performance was the same as the previous model. Oops. We don't know why. Some of my questions (doubts) are given below. Any explanation  members might be able to offer as to why these seemingly huge differences do not render the comparison inappropriate would be much appreciated.

    • Wings are designed to provide a force orthogonal to the direction of travel, to support the aircraft's weight - no propulsive force is expected. This is probably the hardest concept for beginner pilots to grasp: gravity is the propulsive force; for a given angle of attack, speed is proportional to the square root of the weight of the aircraft. Most competition sailplanes carry water ballast to increase their speed; the ballast is dumped before landing to reduce the stall speed. Lift converts the downwards force of gravity into horizontal motion. The purpose of a sail is to provide a propulsive force to the vessel. If you were sailing hard on the wind and cut the mast off at the base, would it fall to windward or downwind? If the sail could, in and of itself, propel a boat to windward a primary law of physics would be violated and what you would have is not lift but perpetual motion. The sail needs the lateral resistance of the underbody to work against in the same way an aircraft needs weight. The keel needs the sideways force from the action of the sail to generate the keel lift to propel the boat to windward.
    • Wings and sails operate at enormously different speeds, and therefore in hugely different Reynolds conditions. Yes, although paper darts, early hang gliders, frisbees and some models operate at similar-ish speeds and suggest a range of solutions to generating lift. 
    • An aeroplane generates nearly all of its apparent wind, which is nearly constant for most of the flight. A balanced aircraft controls its speed by changing its angle of attack, wing alterations such as flaps aside. Many aircraft operate over speed range ratios of six or more, and do so by adjusting pitch. As a result, the wing only needs to operate in a small range of angles-of-attack and airspeed (excluding take-off and landing, where extensible flaps are used). Sails are expected to operate in a wide range of wind speeds (~0 to 50 mph) and wind angles (~30 to 90 degrees). And they change their modus operandi as they do so, from a high lift/low drag configuration when on the wind to the opposite when running. 
    • Unlike the wing on a fixed-wing aircraft, the windspeed at the top of the mast is different from that at the bottom, and not always by a consistent amount. 


    Chris, I think the best sail science is being done by people like you and others on this site. I make no claims of any expertise in aero- or hydro- dynamics; on the contrary, while those who can speak the language may understand the broad brush-stroke principles it is those who design, tinker, think, try, argue, experiment and play who are doing the learning and coming up with the surprises. Wear the hat!
    Last modified: 03 Nov 2016 20:52 | Deleted user
  • 03 Nov 2016 16:18
    Reply # 4362807 on 4362251

    It's perfectly true that aircraft wings are not sails, and vice versa. They operate in different sets of conditions, for sure. But what about wind turbine blades? Or Formula One cars? Or any other object that's placed in moving air? Aerodynamics isn't restricted to describing one set of objects and not another. Over the last hundred years or so, a vast body of knowledge and experience has built up, such that the aerodynamic properties of any object can be modelled, or established by wind tunnel testing. OK, so a sail is subject to wind shear, and a wing isn't, for example. No problem, an aerodynamicist can calculate, and model, and demonstrate, what difference that makes, if called upon to do so. And they have been called upon to do so, for the likes of the Americas Cup syndicates. 

    But I think, Chris, you asked the question because Slieve mentioned the behaviour of the tip of a 3D foil, and here, wings and sails have the same problem to deal with - how to minimise the drag caused by the tip vortex. But because wings and sails operate under differing practical and physical constraints, their designers have to pick differing solutions to the problem. Same problem, different solution - but all covered by the science of aerodynamics.

  • 03 Nov 2016 11:54
    Reply # 4362319 on 4362251
    Deleted user

    Michael

    Those are useful article worth reading, but do not really address my questions.

    My favourite explanation of "How Sails Work" is by Paul Bogotaj. In it he make the initial statement that sails are just flexible wings. He then goes on to explain the aerodynamic theory of wings, and then applies it to sails. Nowhere does he attempt to justify the initial statement. Many others do the same.

    My questions express some of my doubts about that initial statement.

    Chris

    Last modified: 03 Nov 2016 11:55 | Deleted user
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