A new rig for Annie

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  • 23 Oct 2016 20:29
    Reply # 4328570 on 4299763

    Thanks, Arne, that's encouraging! Nobody wants to carry around unnecessary canvas. Still, we may tweak a wee bit more sail area. 

    It is interesting to see where the sail area is in the 1.90 A/R rig vs the gaff. There's quite a bit high up which is useful. Camber is a must as far as I am concerned. 

    Will be looking at Doug fir for this and other spars next month...

    Thanks again,

    Pol.

  • 23 Oct 2016 18:18
    Reply # 4328486 on 4299763
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    Pol,

    now, in haste I traced the original gaff rig, and superimposed it on the junk rig.

    I believe, if you get the balance right, with or without the mizzen, then Annie will sail in rings around her gaff-rigged sisters, even with that "little" 51sqm JR. Even more so if you turbocharge that sail by giving it 8, or better 10% camber.

    Arne

    (See Arnes sketches, Section 2, Photo 10)

    Last modified: 23 Jan 2023 11:45 | Anonymous member (Administrator)
  • 23 Oct 2016 16:03
    Reply # 4328379 on 4299763

    Dear all and thanks very much for your responses Michael, Arne and David,

    About Michael's comment... my John Leather book Gaff Rig has gone missing... But I think JL's opinion relates to the true cat whose mast is right in the eyes of the ship. And some of them had booms that must've been longer than their waterline. Pretty hairy in a blow.. But we are not quite in that league fortunately!

    Thanks very much for the mast drawing Arne. My mast weight comes out very much as yours did when I re-jigged my previous much heavier one to dia at partners = 270mm. In fact mine was a bit less than yours at 363 litres "solid". Anyway it will be something around that. My timber is likely to be Douglas fir, a little heavier than spruce.

     I've looked at the big scale drawing of the boat and I think this mast position is nearer to 14% of wl from the stem. I am very much reassured by your and David Tyler's comments. Interesting that Tystie's mast was this far forward! But her mast would be lighter I think... Our Annie has plenty of grip on the water up forward,  so she should behave OK when reefed judging by your experiences.

    Just out of curiosity I measured Annie's gaff rig for windage. Excluding the mains'l bundle but including bowsprit (which is 3m clear over the bow and .3sqm) it amounts to about 3.56sqm when at anchor. The bowsprit and headsails amount to over 1sqm, so removing those will reduce that windage far forward.. Under sail the windage is about 2.18sqm including the bowsprit and excluding the rolled up head sails.

    Your question about the centreboard position is a really interesting one. And the quick answer is that I don't think the helm changes much with the board up or down, but I'm ashamed to say that I've never studied it! We usually only have it down if going to windward, as it clunks a bit in its casing when anywhere apart from near to fully up and I like the idea of reducing drag when it is stowed! How different from the de luxe arrangement on Roxane, where hers was completely silent. But surely if the weather helm is reduced by lowering the plate that's a god thing, or am I missing something?! 

    On balance, Arne, I feel we may need to maximise our sail area to nearer the gaff's existing area. Should I try to get to LAP 11.44 and 54sqm? Or more?  What do you think yourself? I know mast weight will become an issue eventually. I just don't want to get caught wallowing in light weather....

    Yes, David, there is now a wheeel on the boat which my Dad fitted when in his 70s to help with the weather helm. Unfortunately this was done at the same time that he lopped about a foot off the end of the boom so none of us are really any the wiser of the effects of that reduction in the leech area of the mains'l. But yes, it does mean that we have a bit more scope for a dinghy masted mizzen. I'd like a rectangular sprit sail, but we have to see what can be done there yet. Any sail area there, flat as Arne suggests, is going to help the veering at anchor.

    Very many thanks again for all help.

    Pol.

     

  • 16 Oct 2016 10:47
    Reply # 4307736 on 4299763
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    David,

    thanks for your input. Now, Pol is away on holiday for a little week, so has probably not even seen my suggested mast ( Btw, read Pol's story on building Solitaire's mast, in JRA Magazine 71, p.11).

    The reason why I drew up the main mast where I did on Pol’s boat, was that it was easiest for him to install it there. I also knew that Pol was interested in adding a mizzen anyway, since his Annie tended to sail about at anchor with the original rig.

    The mast position at 12.5% of the wl. from the end (of wl.) is not that extreme: I just checked the position of Johanna’s mast (11.0%) and Ingeborg (14.0%). I have never had a problem with rising lee helm as I deep-reef these sails, but of course, the wind drag of Johanna’s bare mast could be a challenge in tight harbour manoeuvres (mainly when backing). Johanna’s mast “sail area” is 1.6sqm and its weight is about 3.0% of the boat (on Ingeborg; around 1.18sqm and 2.6%).

    It seems that when we build thicker, stronger masts, they gain strength faster than weight, so that is why Annie’s suggested hollow wooden mast will only add 2.4% to her displacement. Moreover, the CG of these masts sits well below the middle of the LAP.

    There is another design factor, which I have started to check more frequently on sloop JRs:

    The ratio between the sail’s chord and the waterline length.

    On Johanna the chord is 83% of the waterline, on Ingeborg it is 80% and on Annie it will be only 74%. Johanna sailed well on all points, but before bearing away after hoisting sail, I had to sheet in the sail and pick up a little speed over 2-3 boatlengths, before she would turn downwind. Ingeborg on the other hand will obey the rudder from the first moment. I therefore think that Annie also will be easy to steer downwind without the need to swing the sail over.

    Another thing about that Cornish Crabber design: It appears to have the centreboard quite far aft. Could it be that weather helm will increase if the board is raised? That would be the opposite of what I would want. Does any one of you have experience with this?

    Arne

    PS: As always, I have suggested to Pol to add endplates near the low end of Annie’s rudder. There is no such thing as too good rudder control.


    Last modified: 03 Mar 2024 16:38 | Anonymous member (Administrator)
  • 16 Oct 2016 08:48
    Reply # 4307698 on 4307340
    Michael Moore wrote: The difficulty I see with a mast close to the ends, (not in the Cat boat league I admit) is that the mass of its mast being about half way up is acting at a lever so increasing the pitching.    
    I tend to agree with this, Mike. I fully understand the desire to place the main mast well forward, but I do feel that there's a sensible limit. Considering only the static weight situation, yes, the trimming ballast can be taken out to compensate; but dynamically, having the CG of the mast so far forward and then high as well, as well, is going to increase the rotary moment of inertia. 

    Having said that, I've just compared the main mast position of Tystie, at 12.5% of DWL aft, with that if the mast is in the position on Arne's sketches of the Cornish Crabber 30 - and they are exactly the same! I guess therefore, that if a mizzen is added to correct the CE, a satisfactory rig can be designed. It wouldn't be as good a rig as if the main mast could be put further aft, but it would be satisfactory. 

    Pol, did I understand you to say that there was now wheel steering, not a tiller? If so, it opens up the possibility of a mizzen mast just ahead of the rudder shaft.

     
  • 15 Oct 2016 20:55
    Reply # 4307374 on 4299763
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    Michael,

    you are right about the windage. That JR mast has 2sqm sail area, as well. This is why I suggest the addition of the 5sqm mizzen.

    Arne

    Last modified: 15 Oct 2016 21:37 | Anonymous member (Administrator)
  • 15 Oct 2016 19:58
    Reply # 4307340 on 4307331
    Deleted user
    Hello Arne, I'm sure your calculations are correct (no critiicism intend!) but we still have to think about windage. It is an old adage of the sailing tradition that says 'keep weight out of the ends!' Now when I stupidly stowed other peoples heavy kit up forward and seriously (dangerously) upset my 26ft Tri back in '74 on my first trip to the Med, the memory was burned in. (being an idiot who has sailed off shore since '73, this has happened many times!) The difficulty I see with a mast close to the ends, (not in the Cat boat league I admit) is that the mass of its mast being about half way up is acting at a lever so increasing the pitching. The way to look at this may be to consider the volume of the hull at the bow (effecting longitudinal stabiity) in Annies case it may be large and so effective. Then we get windage which will always create trouble as one reefs

    Just a thought,

    Mike

      
    Last modified: 15 Oct 2016 20:05 | Deleted user
  • 15 Oct 2016 19:27
    Reply # 4307331 on 4299763
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    Michael,

    I think I am well aware of potential problems with the mast right in the bow. However, the mast position I suggest here is not quite in that American Catboat league. Besides, I suggest (and Pol seems keen on) digging out the mast to a wall thickness of just 1/5 of the diameter.

    See the mast drawing I have made.

    To find its weight, I divide it into 3 section; the upper cut off cone, the mid cylinder, and the lower cut off cone/pyramide.

    If my calculations are not completely off, then:

    ·         the volume of the top section is 303litre (194litre if dug out)

    ·         the volume of the cylinder section at the partners is 34litre

    ·         the volume of the bottom section is around 43 litre (approx.)

    The total volume of the wood in the solid mast is then 380 litre, while the volume of wood in the hollow mast is 271 litre. Since one litre of water is one kilogram (kg) and since spruce has about half the density of water,

    the solid mast should be around 190kg and
    the hollow mast should come out at about 136kg. Even if not built with gunsmith’s perfection, that hollow mast should end up well below 150kg.

    Compared to the Cornish Crabber 30’s displacement of 14000lbs (6350kg) it will be less than 2.4% of the boat’s displacement. Compared to numbers I have experienced on my own boats, this is very low -  the lowest, actually.

    Conclusion: I think that a Cornish Crabber Pilot Cutter 30 will do all right with that mast.

    Cheers, Arne

    PS: I suggest you double-check my calculations.

    PPS: The mast’s diameter was found by using my twisted version of the PJR formula (see Chapter 6 of TCPJR)


    Last modified: 09 Jul 2018 08:32 | Anonymous member (Administrator)
  • 15 Oct 2016 12:46
    Reply # 4307067 on 4306382
    Deleted user
    Arne Kverneland wrote: 

    To better let you see what is being discussed; here are the sketches I have made for a JR for Pol's boat. As you can see, I have streteched the lead a bit here. In case the boat ends up with more lee helm than can be fixed by shifting the sail aft, I suggest fitting a little mizzen. Such a triangular mizzen with a sprit boom is super-easy to set and furl (on the mast). Cut perfectly flat, the mizzen can do second duty as an anchor riding sail. See text below the photos.

    Arne

      

    Hello Pol and Arne, just a word about mast position. Do you know 'The Gaff Rig Handbook' by John Leather, published by Adlard Coles? In it (P70) there are some interesting comments on the American Catboat (mast right forward) and how it handled. I'll try and copy and post some relevant text.
    Last modified: 15 Oct 2016 12:47 | Deleted user
  • 14 Oct 2016 22:24
    Reply # 4306549 on 4299763
    Arne, thanks very much for drawing up these options, and for posting them here as well. The 51sqm sail with its LAP of 10.2 looks good and "snug", while, with the equivalent sail area of Annie's current jib and half the staysail added, the 56sqm looks very useful for lighter weather, which we seem to get more of up here these days.

    Somewhere between these is where the compromise lies I think.

    The effect of the tiny mizzen on the CE is amazing! I know it's never going to give much drive but the sketch says something useful to me. I'd like it primarily as a steadying sail at anchor as Annie does sheer about a bit even with her current rig. Practically speaking it can be fitted more or less on top of the rudder post, so the bumkin would not need to be over long.

    Thanks, David, for your suggestion of the Gazelle rig with jib. I think if I am converting to JR I'd really like to leave the possibility of even only one flogging headsail to others! 

    As for keeping the bowsprit. It would be nice to get rid of that nearly 4m of solid spruce  / 2.7m of overhang off the bow, but could it be handy for an ultra lightweight ghosting sail? We could always make a much lighter timber one since its new duties would require less strength.

    Thanks again, Pol.

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