The relationship between depth of camber, panel diagonals and batten stagger

  • 27 Jul 2019 09:34
    Reply # 7799148 on 4287177
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    Mast rake and yard angle

    Mast rake is a big factor with respect to batten stagger when reefing. With a mast with LAP= 10m and the mast rake at 2, 4 or 6° forward, the mast top will sit 35, 70 or 105cm forward of the partners, This will lead to the halyard constantly pulling the sail forward as the sail is being lowered.  Positive batten stagger must then be ensured by making the batten parrels to a suitable length, so that when furling the sail, the battens will slide down and aft on these b.-parrels. Well and fine, if one can keep friction low enough.
    This clearly has worked with Asmat’s foresail and on Graham’s sail.

    Still, I stick with the vertical mast as long as deck space and interior allow it. I could even think of trying 1-2°aft rake again, as I had on Broremann. Aft rake brings the mast top aft of the partners, and after the first reef, the halyard goes vertical (or even pointing a bit aft), and from then on the sail will not try to fall forward, so there will be very little friction at the batten parrels. This is also one of the advantages with the 70° yard; the halyard is easy to get vertical.

    Both Asmat’s and Graham’s sails have high-peaking yards, and I bet that helped them to get away with the forward mast rake without  having too much friction.

    Note: All I have written above is about sails with parallel battens. Fanned sails are quite different, and I know too little about them to have any opinion about them.

    Arne


    Last modified: 27 Jul 2019 10:26 | Anonymous member (Administrator)
  • 27 Jul 2019 00:59
    Reply # 7798914 on 4287177

    I had long batten parrels on Arion and got quite a bit of negative batten stagger until I fitted what I call Paul Fay fixed parrels on each batten, which went from the front end of a batten around the mast and back to the same point.  By adjusting their length, not only did I stop the battens going forward but I could induce positive batten stagger.  More friction for sure, but maybe no more than using short batten parrels.  Their primary advantage for me was being able to induce positive batten stagger.  Once I had these rigged, the sail furled like a dream.  I did have HK parrels as well, to help the set of the sail when hoisted, though once I had fitted Arne's throat hauling parrel, they did not do much work, except when the boat was pitching heavily into a head sea.

  • 26 Jul 2019 19:00
    Reply # 7798494 on 4287177
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    Scott,

    I am not sure, but you may well get away with long batten parrels. My point is that after the first reef, the sail will have moved forward until the halyard is almost vertical, so from then on the sail will not want to move forward. The reefed battens can actually be placed where you want by playing the THP and YHP as you lower the sail.

    Note. The HK-parrels have nothing to do with battens stagger when reefing. Each HK-parrel only comes into play with the corresponding panel fully raised.

    Arne

  • 26 Jul 2019 17:33
    Reply # 7798344 on 4287177

    Branwen follows Chinese tradition: foremast raked forward about 6° and a vertical luff to the foresail, so that the lower battens and boom project further forward of the mast than the upper ones. The batten parrels are of moderate length. The sail always furls correctly, with postive batten stagger in spite of cambered panels.

    Her mainmast is vertical, luff parallel to mast and the sail furls with negative stagger. In future,  I would always choose to rake all masts forward. Another happy result of forward rake is that the sail remains quiet when squared away before the wind in light airs and a sloppy sea.

  • 26 Jul 2019 13:55
    Reply # 7798064 on 7797802
    Arne wrote:

    Controlling batten stagger in a cambered panel sail.

    [...]On the four boats, Johanna, Broremann, Edmond Dantes and Frøken Sørensen, this happens when reefing:

    The sail moves forward (negative batten stagger) about 4% at the first reef. Then the halyard goes close to vertical and the half-short batten parrels prevents the sail from moving any further forward. The short batten parrels don’t add much to the friction, with the halyard not pulling the sail forward. (See Ingeborg’s sail with one reef, below.)
    Still, the boom would protrude 4% from the reefed bundle and catch the sheets. This is why I cut off 4-5% of the sail and boom at the clew.

    Hi Arne,

    Thank you for re-starting this topic. Over in this topic you said, "The batten parrels were quite long on the shown photo, which gives problems with negative batten stagger when reefing and furling the sail."

    Making my sail I followed your 'normal' design as close as I could, with one intentional exception. I want to be able to square my sail out for running down wind. The only reason for this is 'I want to'. I made the forward battens pockets long enough that I can ease the sail out to almost 50% balance using some combination of tack and luff parrels attached to the forward edge of the sail.

    I did cut off about 5% of the sail at the clew.

    My assumption has been that Hong Kong parrels will prevent negative batten stagger.

    I will be reading though what David T. wrote on the subject. Do you have any other advice for making long batten parrels work with a sail that mostly follows your instructions?

    Scott.

    Last modified: 26 Jul 2019 14:07 | Anonymous member
  • 26 Jul 2019 10:37
    Reply # 7797802 on 4287177
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    Controlling batten stagger in a cambered panel sail.


    Hasler and McLeod’s Practical Junk Rig, PJR shows the rules to get (just a little ) positive batten stagger, and thus trouble-free reefing of their standard, flat HM sails. David Tyler has with his PDF shown what corrections should be done to keep correct batten stagger in cambered (baggy) panel sails as well. This no doubt will work fine.

    However, on my rather lo-AR sails, the boom rise would end up very high, so I have settled on another method:

    ·         I have standardised on a variation of HM-sails with 10° boom rise and 70° yard angle.

    ·         The 10° boom rise gives a sufficient clearance over the sprayhood or doghouse and lets me reef without adjusting the topping lifts.

    ·         The 70° yard brings the slingpoint of the halyard quite close to the mast. With over 15% sail balance the halyard will hardly pull the sail forward at all, even with the slingpoint moved a bit aft of the middle.

    On the four boats, Johanna, Broremann, Edmond Dantes and Frøken Sørensen, this happens when reefing:
    The sail moves forward (negative batten stagger) about 4% at the first reef. Then the halyard goes close to vertical and the half-short batten parrels prevents the sail from moving any further forward. The short batten parrels don’t add much to the friction, with the halyard not pulling the sail forward. (See Ingeborg’s sail with one reef, below.)
    Still, the boom would protrude 4% from the reefed bundle and catch the sheets. This is why I cut off 4-5% of the sail and boom at the clew.

    My present Ingeborg has proven to be a special case. Due to sloppy design work from my side, she initially turned out to have a bit too much weather helm with the sail fitted in ‘my normal’ position; with around 12% balance. I then shifted the sail forward until it was nearly at the aft end of the batten parrels (just by easing the standing Tack Parrel). The result is that the sail doesn’t move any more forward when reefing, so shortening the foot of that sail was actually not needed.

    I find that this design method is easy to use, and produces trouble-free reefing. Moreover, one  can make sails with various camber ratios without redesigning the sailplan for each value of camber.

    Hope this makes sense...

    Arne


    Ingeborg's sail with one reef.


  • 03 Oct 2016 10:25
    Message # 4287177

    I've been asked again about this topic. I wrote about it in a previous discussion:

     http://www.junkrigassociation.org/technical_forum/1067661#1071636

    Webmaster: I think it would be worth adding this to "Junk FAQs/ Sails" so that it doesn't get lost.

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